One State: The Only Democratic Future for Palestine-Israel | Ghada Karmi | Book Launch
One State: The Only Democratic Future for Palestine-Israel | Ghada Karmi |
14 Jun 2023
Book Launch | One State: The Only Democratic Future for Palestine-Israel (Pluto Press). Mark Seddon in Conversation with Ghada Karmi
In her latest book, the acclaimed Palestinian author, Ghada Karmi, argues that the 'peace process' that has favoured the two-state solution for more than forty years has now been internationally exposed as masking the expansion of Israel's apartheid regime. Seventy-five years ago, Ghada Karmi and her family in Jerusalem were among the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who were exiled during the Nakba. She has since become one of the most vocal proponents of the single democratic state in Palestine-Israel.
In her new book, Karmi powerfully argues that this is the best possible settlement for the Palestinians, including the refugees; imagining a single secular state in historic Palestine, all of whose inhabitants would enjoy the same rights.
Dr Ghada Karmi was born in Jerusalem. Forced from her home during the Nakba, she later trained as a Doctor of Medicine at Bristol University. She established the first British-Palestinian medical charity in 1972 and was an Associate Fellow at the Royal Institute for International Affairs. Dr Karmi also served as vice chair of the Council for Arab-British Understanding (Caabu) and was a research a fellow at the Institute of Arab and Islamic studies at the University of Exeter. Her previous books include the best-selling memoir In Search of Fatima (2002) and Return: A Palestinian memoir (2015).
Mark Seddon was the first UN Correspondent for Al Jazeera English and is a former editor of Tribune Magazine. He also served as a speechwriter for the UN Secretary General, Ban Ki-moon, and previously as a Media Advisor to the President of the UN General Assembly, María Fernanda Espinosa.
Transcript
0:00
well good evening everybody thank you very much for joining us
0:06
I think we'll start fairly promptly we're delighted to have Dr garakami with us I've spent the weekend reading her
0:13
fantastic book and you're going to have this wonderful opportunity of course to buy a copy yourself and have it signed
0:19
by her at the back I just need to say that this whole event is being filmed live all of it so if any of you don't
0:27
really want to be on the camera please move over to those red seats over there if you don't want to be picked up
0:34
on the camera I have to mention that the idea really is that I have a chat
0:40
with Gava for about 20 minutes half an hour and then we open it all up to you
0:46
um because uh I'd sat down with one state the only Democratic future for
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Palestine Israel over the weekend and almost in one sitting um I read it it's a fantastic book very
1:00
cogently written very powerful arguments um also just for people who may not be
1:06
as familiar as as many of us perhaps about history it's a very educative uh piece of work
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it really does set things up very very clearly and I will you know begin actually by asking Garda about her own
1:21
story because I think that's going to be very interesting for people of people amongst you who don't know her
1:27
um so I should start read by thanking all of you who attended the last event that Palestine Deep dive did this event
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is being hosted by Palestine Deep dive we're doing this in concert with Pluto
1:39
press delighted to be working with Pluto and encouraging people to pick up the
1:45
book and buy it so um the event last month against Eurasia why Palestinian voices must
1:52
finally take Center stages with Malia burasha and she was in conversation with Muhammad al-kerd In This Very Room of
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course but of course we're here today to be with Dr garakami and
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um and to talk about her latest book now as you will know she fundamentally argues that the peace process has
2:14
favored the two-state solution for more than 40 years and she believes it's now
2:19
been internationally exposed as masking the expansion of Israel's apartheid
2:24
regime now 75 years ago Garda and her family in
2:31
Jerusalem were among the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who were exiled during the neck burn of course
2:37
last month um the world commemorated the Napa um many of you here were at the event at
2:44
uh Westminster Central Hall with the Palestinian Ambassador with
2:49
many others to commemorate the nakba
2:54
has since become one of the most vocal proponents of the single Democratic state in Palestine Israel and in her new
3:03
book she powerfully argues that this is the best possible settlement for the Palestinians including the refugees
3:11
imagining a single secular state in historic Palestine all of whose
3:16
inhabitants would enjoy the same rights um Garda as I mentioned was born in
3:23
Jerusalem forced from her home during the Napa she later trained as a doctor of medicine at Bristol University she
3:31
established the first British Palestinian medical charity in 1972 and
3:37
was an associate fellow at the Royal Institute for international affairs Garda has also served as Vice chair of
3:45
the council for Arab British understanding kabu and was a research fellow at The Institute of Arab and
3:51
Islamic Studies and at the University of Exeter her previous books include the best-selling Memoir in search of Fatima
3:58
and return a Palestinian Memoir and I think guarded this book in in many
4:04
respects is follows it follows on in that train in that mold
4:11
um I mean I wonder if you could just begin I mean I mentioned your your own story
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um I mean you've been you have been battling and fighting campaigning for
4:25
all these decades um and also I I I I I suspect
4:31
promulgating a view that has become almost as acceptable as become
4:36
inevitable because that is the primary having sat down and read your book it was essentially the inevitability of the
4:43
one state solution that you were arguing but I'd like to just Begin by asking you you know what what is it that keeps you
4:49
fired up and going and you know here we are this is the the debate is moving on to
4:56
your Terrain in very many ways but how confident are you that you're going to see this happening
5:02
well first of all hello to everyone here
5:07
um it's a pleasure to see you all um the question before the one the last
5:13
one you asked which is what why do I do it why do I keep going well it's very
5:19
simple there's nothing difficult about it I want to go home I I want to at
5:25
least end whatever life is left to me in my own Homeland and I deeply resent the
5:34
fact that I can't do that and that strikes me as being a very basic
5:40
fundamental Injustice not difficult to understand and that's the thing that
5:45
drives me all the time um so there is that now in terms of
5:53
uh my political activism I should actually correct you I haven't been battling for 75 years because
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um as people who may have read in such fat Fatima will know I actually had no
6:09
political awareness until the 1967 war it really is true I I did not spend my
6:17
childhood and an early adult life fretting about Palestine I very much
6:23
wanted to fit into Britain into English society to be no different
6:29
to other people and I thought I had succeeded I actually
6:36
thought I'd succeeded people seem to accept me they were very nice to me and
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I thought very good I am I'm really almost English and in fact I had when I
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was at University when I started in Bristol I had a first flatmate who was a
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veterinary medicine student and she was terribly English she came from Norwich
7:03
and we were one day in in our flat and she
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was calling and I heard her say Where's that Arab gone so I
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something I don't know what made me say it I said yes you're right I am an Arab
7:22
she said no you're not you're just a dark-skinned English girl
7:27
and I remember I remember that vividly because that's how she's saw me and
7:33
maybe other people saw me until 1967 and the when that happened there was no
7:40
possibility of continuing with the fantasy that I was somehow rather
7:47
English well I was not because I had no friends left the truth was 1967
7:53
everybody was on the side of Israel nobody was on my side
7:58
and then I thought wait a minute I'm not English what am I I'm Palestinian and I
8:05
always will be and that was really the start of the road to activism which
8:10
never ceased from that time until this and I think you'll correct me if I'm
8:17
wrong but I think today or tomorrow is the anniversary of the beginning of the 67 War
8:23
exactly yes it is and um I mean we're looking at a situation now and I
8:29
wonder if you could just give us a flavor actually because I think this is a question often at the back of people's minds is that we're seeing that um
8:37
the big pressure has been for the two-state solution this is the internationally accepted position of the
8:43
United Nations it's what's argued for by many governments I mean Mexico has just
8:49
in the last few days recognized Palestine as a state and there is a Divergence clearly between
8:55
um your argument and that of the Palestinian Authority for instance and I think the Palestinian Ambassador here
9:01
for instance they would all say well this is all very well um however
9:07
um our position is that we want this two-state solution tell us why you don't think that really
9:14
is a serious Contender anymore um yeah I mean this is the Crux isn't it
9:20
this is the heart of it uh the two-state solution has been this Mantra that
9:27
people repeat over and over again but what it is in reality when you examine
9:34
it what what you realize what it's all about is a preserving Israel albeit in
9:45
slightly smaller geographical space with preserving Israel is very important
9:50
but at the same time being aware that the poor Palestinians have had a rough
9:57
deal so we'll give them something we'll talk about a fifth of the original
10:02
Homeland which is the West Bank and Gaza
10:08
um and and East Jerusalem is is is not part of that deal although it should
10:14
be anyway it it forms a fifth of the origin Homeland they can
10:20
it can create their own State there so that everybody's happy you know and and
10:25
who is everybody first of all the Israelis because they retain their
10:34
state and their you know status secondly the the Western World which
10:43
created Israel and doesn't want to see it um come to an end so that keeps them
10:50
happy now as for the Palestinians will they get something so they were it's not
10:57
a bad idea now for a start to me that kind of construct is totally to be
11:04
rejected it's it's really if you think about it it's outrageous you know that
11:10
the settler state that created itself in in the
11:16
Palestinian Homeland and was maintained by Western support
11:21
um is apparently entitled to um 80 of the territory of of the
11:29
Palestinian Homeland and the original inhabitants um are sort of given 20 now what is
11:38
omitted even in the best variation of the two-state solution or the refugees I'm
11:45
talking about the people sitting in camps five to six million who've been in
11:51
Camp since 1948. well where are they going not a mention of these people how
11:58
is it acceptable to leave them nearly six million people
12:04
rotting in a camps supported by the UN with no end in sight with no
12:13
promise of a future how is that acceptable that's also a part of the two-state solution so to me it was a
12:20
no-brainer you couldn't accept the two-state solution if you were a a
12:26
Palestinian B A person who understands Justice and doesn't like to see Injustice
12:32
now you mentioned something very important of course there is a big obstacle
12:40
I and I don't mean Israel I mean this consensus this International consensus
12:49
about the creation of something called the Palestinian state and as people know maybe here
12:57
138 States member states of the UN that's a majority of member states have
13:03
recognized this thing called Palestine well when you look into it what is the
13:09
Palestine they've recognized they've recognized a state which is to be constructed by the way it
13:17
doesn't exist now on the territories of the 1960s and the
13:23
1967 territories some of which um we know or a lot of which are already
13:33
taken over by Israeli supplements Apparently that is what is going to be
13:39
the Palestinian state so you know the question that has to be asked is what it is UN State thinking of what what do
13:47
they recognizing really and therefore this constitutes a huge obstacle in the
13:54
path of people who believe in what I believe because you are immediately up against
14:03
in a so-called International consensus which says you people deserve a state
14:08
and here we are recognizing our state and as you said Mexico uh just now and I
14:14
know that attempts have been made to get the British government to recognize the Palestinian state
14:21
but what what so what it's meaningless but
14:27
what it does is effectively put a spanner in the works of people who
14:32
really want a just solution that's the problem with it but God don't do not think that there's
14:41
a difference between let's say the the settler states of Algeria or Rhodesia or
14:46
with South Africa as well with uh Palestine Israel because of the
14:52
demographics the settlers were in a minority in those countries um but where we're talking about I mean
14:59
tell us actually will you tell us something about that the demographics because you mentioned all the refugees
15:05
um and you and also moving from just the demographics to
15:12
um what the actual aim is of the Israeli State as we see it now
15:18
would you would this one state solution be possible if the desire is to make
15:23
sure that there aren't enough Palestinians in the Palestinian territories and to drive them out which
15:28
appears to be the policy absolutely and that is why the the one state idea needs
15:36
all the support it can get because Israel's trajectory is clear uh anybody
15:42
who can't see that really needs to do a bit of reading the trajectory is clear
15:48
it's to get the land without the people and they're working hard at it all the
15:54
time it's quite openly debated you know in Israel so that's that's the Israeli
16:01
position now if you actually look at geography
16:07
what you see is that the Territory between the Jordan River and the
16:14
Mediterranean Sea one territory one territory ruled by Israel
16:20
is composed demographically of roughly half and half
16:26
Palestinian Arabs and Israeli Jews that's never mind the refugees that's in
16:33
actual in historic Palestine inside historic Palestine so
16:40
it seems to me very clear that since we have a situation of one state already
16:48
there is one state but the problem with that one state is it's ruled by one
16:53
apartheid regime which deals with half the population in
17:01
a manner that no civilized society can accept they have no rights
17:06
they have no they have no citizenship and yet they're ruled by this apartheid
17:14
regime so I mean honestly what more logical
17:20
than to look at setup like that never mind all the stuff that's written all the time look at look at the setup
17:27
clearly the next move from that is to alter the regime that's ruling this one
17:34
territory that's clearly the case you know because if you do not have a a
17:41
system of government which discriminates between Jew and non-jew to the detriment
17:48
of non-jews if you don't have that anymore what you
17:53
have is moving towards what I'm talking about that you're all together in one
18:00
state and what government is going to do and this God is is predicated on your I
18:06
think your fundamental argument runs all the way through your book is equal rights because essentially equal rights
18:12
that one person one vote the question of course I'm sure everybody would be asking in this room
18:18
how do you get there with such an obdurate uh government with a very
18:24
sizable part of the Israeli population that is incredibly hostile I'm sure if you were sitting down with a
18:31
liberal-minded uh Israelis and Tel Aviv you could reach some kind of agreement a
18:36
lot of people were demonstrating over this past weekend in commemoration for all of this but this is a very small
18:42
minority and you're up against some very very hard-line people and with a
18:47
disinterest at The Very Best of the West yeah and of course you put your finger
18:53
on why this is something very difficult to achieve we have to be honest about it
18:59
we have to distinguish between what I am putting forward as a desirable State of
19:04
Affairs desirable and the first question needs to be do you agree with the idea
19:11
just set aside for a minute how do we get there are but you know the Israel do
19:17
you like the idea if you do if you do agree that people
19:24
cannot be ruled without rights and those rights have to be equivalent
19:30
throughout the territory that is being ruled and that just seems to me to be very obvious now if people say yes we
19:38
sign on to that we agree to that right now we're up against the how which was
19:44
the how question you asked now here I I feel very strongly people have to face
19:50
the face facts it's really it's really the case that if you asked
19:58
Palestinian Arabs today to say now look here we are we're
20:05
gonna have uh we're going to change the form of government we're going to have a government of equal rights you become
20:11
equal citizens with these Jews I can bet you most persons will say no
20:19
thank you because they don't want to live with their usurpers with the people who've
20:25
treated them so badly that's on the Palestinian side if you go to Israeli Jews use and you say how do you view the
20:33
idea of equality equal citizenship with all
20:38
these Arabs they would be horrified because for them Arabs first of all
20:44
there is a strong racist element in all this they are a despised people and the
20:50
last thing they would want is equal citizenship with people they despise furthermore they have loads of
20:57
privileges at the moment the Privileges of a colonial society they don't want to give up so if you were to approach this
21:05
question from how do this how does this side feel and that's why you have to
21:10
face facts they don't like it they don't want it the Palestines would say to you
21:17
or dearest wish is to turn the clock back to a time before 1948 when this was
21:24
our homeland if you go to the Israeli Jews and say to them whatever their dearest wishes for the Palestinians to
21:30
disappear so that is the reality and that's what we're dealing with so where do we go
21:36
from here and that is actually essentially the question in that book facing facts this is how it is
21:45
you have on the one hand A Way Forward which is moral it's sensible it's
21:52
realistic and it's gonna work it might work on the other you have the reality
21:59
of two camps which don't like each other and they don't want to live together so
22:05
what do you do now if I were to give away with what I would what I'm saying
22:11
nobody will buy the book
22:17
we're going to open it up to all of you shortly but I just wanted to kind of end on a couple of questions we're looking
22:22
more broadly at the support um Beyond Israel Palestine Palestine Israel by the way if you're going to get
22:28
a one state solution you've got to agree on the name that's the first bit of it and that's the that could be a bit problematic but there's um
22:36
you know I was looking at this the the the the the reality is and I think probably when you were writing the book
22:43
um this was before the great turmoil that we've seen in Israel itself in recent
22:49
weeks and we're seeing this kind of March of the theocrats in many ways we're seeing uh a very very strong identity with the
22:59
Zionist ideology and all the rest of it uh we're seeing uh liberal values in Israel being sort of on put on the
23:06
defensive and and essentially Israel becoming a much more uh identifiably uh
23:12
Theocratic state which makes it more difficult potentially for some of its supporters to continue to support it
23:18
from outside so my first question is is do you think that with what's been happening in
23:23
Israel and also what it's been doing what it's military and what this we're seeing the uptick
23:30
sensationally large UPS uptick in the number of people killed and murdered by
23:36
uh by by soldiers and what have you this year do you do you think that's gonna is that feeding in we know it might be as you
23:43
talk about in your book amongst amongst people generally but is it affecting government
23:49
and the second part of the question is if for so long
23:54
um the United States was engaged in shuttle diplomacy until it gave up after Oslo perhaps or whatever and really most
24:02
western governments have paid absolute lip service to the UN resolutions they've either helped write or voted for
24:09
do you think a Palestine Palestinians will be increasingly looking elsewhere perhaps to other countries perhaps to
24:16
China for instance because you're not getting support if you've given up on the west why why not
24:22
why not look elsewhere yeah yeah no no it makes sense it makes sense I mean let me just say a word or two about the West
24:31
um you know these liberal zionists you you mentioned the truth is and it's got to be faced
24:38
you know um the West is fixated on the idea of Israel they can't
24:47
give it up and I've often speculated that one of the reasons why the one
24:54
state idea with all the senses it makes doesn't get anywhere at official level
25:01
in Western circles and no institution no
25:06
Western Government has supported it or adopted it that a very basic reason for
25:13
this is the fact that they understand that if you have a one Democratic State
25:20
that's the end of Israel as you know it it's not it's not Israelis being killed
25:26
it's the state structure of Israel will end it has to you know one Democratic
25:32
State and they resist that now it's an area I want to explore much more not
25:38
obviously we have time because it's very important and very interesting the
25:43
Western adherence to the idea of Israel which they can't give up it's like an addict
25:51
they can't give up on it and it makes it very difficult really to to you know to work with them so so the the so we have
25:59
that to worry about now you also mentioned you gave some parallels look
26:05
first of all let me tell you if I may there are no power parallels to Israel
26:11
past none I have looked in history I've looked at the current situation I've
26:16
looked at recent Colonial history there is no parallel to what has happened here where you have a foreign Community
26:26
imposed from the outside and maintained by the outside
26:32
and with a sort of an emotional psychological
26:40
achment to this settler colony which is
26:45
quite extraordinary now Algeria was not an example of settler colonialism it was
26:51
you know colonialism okay there were these um
26:57
indeed indeed but when when it ended a lot of French who lived in Algeria went
27:04
to because they had a home country um as for other other states well you
27:11
said they hadn't disappeared or their minority it's not true if you look at the United States at Canada at Australia
27:18
the indigenous people were demolished largely and and and the
27:25
settlers took over so those are the sort of historical examples they're not parallels but what
27:32
we have here is something really very very strange and I have talked about it in the book it's something that people
27:39
should think about which doesn't conform to the rules of
27:46
um political analysis in the normal sense it doesn't you have to put on a
27:52
kind of a different hat and and a different set of understandings to really get what's going on well God I
27:59
mean I think in the case of the South African africanas in the in the end they were assured that their they had nowhere
28:05
else to go and their future was assured in the Democratic uh one Member One vote democracy which is South Africa so you
28:13
know with all that you're saying about the one state solution and the the obvious you would have thought appeal to
28:19
most people nobody's having their rights in Fringe they're all getting equal rights nobody's being told that they
28:24
must go or they can all of this um but we still have a real
28:32
um reaction to it and I just bit before I was this I promise you this is the last one because I I said that I'd raise
28:37
this with you because you were due to debate this I believe um with uh Loki this whole issue and you
28:44
were going to do an event and suddenly it was it was pulled because of pressure from outside can you can you tell us with by the way
28:52
this is by the way we're saying that we're doing this and they didn't but but but do tell us what what is it that is
28:58
so uh incendiary about this issue of a one-state solution that had the event I
29:04
think it was with the Balfour project was it was um it was pulled yeah it
29:09
wasn't it wasn't the issue it wasn't uh the issue and it wasn't me apparently
29:17
um it it was low-key and and the reason was this was the Balfour project people
29:22
may or may not have heard of but um is this charity which is interested
29:29
it interests itself in Palestine but also does have connections with uh what
29:37
you might call liberal Zionist organizations and individuals now what
29:43
happened on this occasion and as and as Mark said this is the the book launch
29:48
that you you were not allowed to hear but you're allowed this evening
29:54
um this book this book the book launch was was canceled because one of these
29:59
liberal Zionist organizations objected to low-key Loki who is identified by
30:07
some of them as quotes anti-Semitic uh now it that's nonsense he's not at
30:15
all anti-semitic and they were never able to produce any evidence that he was but sadly the organizers uh on behalf of
30:24
the Balfour project pulled it in fear in case there was an
30:32
offense caused to the liberal zionists now you know this happened on the night
30:39
before before the book launch was due literally on the night before where this
30:47
organization this Zionist organization objected on the night before
30:53
but unfortunately uh what should have happened is that the
30:59
organizer should have said to the Zionist organization it's too late you've left it very late we cannot
31:06
cancel these speakers maybe you know later we will look into it Etc something they
31:12
didn't do it they they put through me under the bus and Loki was a Persona on
31:19
grata and just because these artists were upset now you know this is exactly
31:27
what in a way I've been talking about roundabout way
31:34
I can only put it you this way until people understand
31:40
really what Zionism has done to the Palestinians until they understand what
31:46
it is actually what Zionism is soft not soft liberal not liberal it's all
31:52
Zionism until people understand that they cannot
31:58
claim to support Palestinians wholeheartedly if you support Palestinians
32:04
wholeheartedly you must reject Zionism for me it's very clear and that is in a
32:11
nutshell goddess tell us what Zion and Zionism is because we see so many times people are attacked for being
32:18
anti-semitic if they're critical of Zionism yeah in a nutshell please tell us yes what it is ethics basic at its
32:26
most basic Zionism was a project is an ongoing project
32:32
to create and maintain a state for Jews
32:38
and in doing so it had to exclude right from the beginning non-jews
32:45
so and hence I was expelled and so many others were expelled because we were
32:50
non-jews and it's very important to understand it's on that basis that we were non-jews that were expelled so
32:57
that's what Zionism continues to maintain and wants to expand the red the
33:04
territory of the of the state of of the Jews in order to accommodate more Jews
33:10
and so you can see in order to get more territory you've got a clear the
33:17
non-jews out which is more Palestinians like me now that is Zionism and it's
33:23
brutal and it's been extremely cruel to to to us Palestinians so if you support
33:31
us how on Earth can you uh show any sympathy towards a project like this
33:39
thank you Garda thank you very much indeed I'm going to open it up to all of you so please let us have your questions
33:44
and tell us who you are if you will um and you don't have to have bought the book to ask a question but starting with
33:51
you please okay okay yeah sorry the microphone
33:56
will come around
34:01
[Laughter]
34:07
and it is actually Canada versus so I'm a Canadian writer I'm actually
34:15
working mainly in Iraq now I wrote a book called dancing and the no-fly zone about pre and post Invasion
34:21
culture working on a new one and I've been following the plight of Christian
34:27
Christians in the Middle East for a long time including in Palestine and in Iraq
34:33
um so I have many questions but I'll just try and focus on one which is
34:38
kind of encompassing a lot of the themes that you've discussed um I don't know
34:43
um what the turning point is going to be in terms of Western support for
34:49
Palestine and or our one state solution but I'm very interested in observing with cane interest the um the land grab
34:57
that's happening around the Mount of Olives and also there was recently an incident
35:03
which was one of many where there was I think some sort of hapless American Zionist Christians who were surrounded
35:09
by um extremist Jews telling them to go home so is there going to be do you
35:15
think a turning point in Western support for Israel if um this land grab in the
35:20
Mount of Olives really hits home if this anti-kind of Christian even anti-christian Zionist stuff is is
35:27
continuing and then my other question is who um on the Israeli left shares your
35:33
views about the one state solution because there are many different concepts of the one state solution so
35:38
I'm familiar with like Jeff helper's Vision Etc but and who um in Palestine
35:43
is really adamantly against your particular vision of the one state solution
35:52
um look they also do the first bit you know at what point will the West turn
35:58
because of land grabs and so on the answer is at no point because the land grabs are going on all the time and the
36:06
West has done nothing absolutely nothing and you have to you know reflect for a
36:11
moment that Israel only does what it does because it has complete it does it
36:19
with complete impunity it has no it has to be accountable to nobody and you know
36:26
what a fantastic position to be in you can steal you can do all know you can
36:32
murder nobody will hold you to account so that that is in reality so the answer
36:38
I'm sorry is at no point will that happen now the the the the the the
36:45
second the second issue which was mermaid who on the Israeli left shares
36:51
oh yes yes yes yes yes look there is a small
36:56
um organization which calls itself the one state one Democratic State Campaign
37:03
which is composed of Israeli Palestinians and Israeli Jews
37:11
it's a small group Jeff Harper includes Jeff Helper and they are working towards
37:19
the idea very similar to mine that you need to create a democratic State
37:24
otherwise I'm sorry to say the Israeli left is not really helpful most of the
37:32
Israeli left there's there's very few members anyway and and it is not helpful
37:38
because the vision I have I think one has to be clear is uncompromising I
37:43
don't I do not accept but what about maybe they can have a bit of this maybe
37:49
they can no it's uncompromising you have equality equal rights in a democracy one
37:57
person one vote democracy and who in the Palestinian side is adamantly opposed to your vision is the
38:03
other part of my question well there are some there there's quite a number that's
38:08
growing it's growing I mean I can tell you I've been banging on about this
38:14
um since maybe 1990 really and over the years the decades I've noticed an
38:22
increase and a welcome uh increase in the numbers of Palestinians who've
38:29
signed on to this initiative who are keen on seeing such an outcome so it is
38:36
it is something which is growing but as I argue in the book it's too slow it's
38:42
all too slow you of course these organizations are great and it's
38:47
wonderful but it's too slow something else is needed thank you
38:54
um no you've got the microphone I was going to say have you got a question uh yes you sir Jonathan Chadwick um
39:01
rather how good to see you um how lovely to hear your voice and how important it is although you've been
39:09
deprived of your Homeland to have you here to talk sense and
39:15
um what I want to ask you is this Israeli Society is in a crisis which may
39:22
well be a terminal kind of Crisis there are major divisions
39:28
within Israel in the banking sector and the finance sector are finding it
39:33
extremely difficult to hold firm there's a flight of capital from the country there's and of course we know that there
39:41
are major divisions within the major institutions in Israeli Society over the
39:47
question of annexation and this could be seen to offer the Palestinians an
39:55
amazing or it could could be seen to believe a basis for the opportunity of
40:00
of change Raphael lemkin in his work on genocide
40:05
talked about not at that point when he he wrote the book and he was a man that
40:11
was buried in New York with three other people around his grave he outlined an idea of the effacement of
40:20
a people as genocide which might end in Mass killing but he phased it and Daniel
40:27
feuerstein and his work on genocide as a social practice has pointed out that
40:33
that process is a phased process which is not necessarily determined by
40:38
anything other than the need for cohesion within the perpetrator group
40:44
the need for I'm going to I'm asking the question and I and I will continue to
40:49
say what I have to say and then um answer it this is a genocidal process
40:57
do you consider this to be a genocidal process because what we might be witnessing is a new phase in the
41:05
genocidal process that is happening and if you consider what you've said about
41:11
the west and the relationship between Israel and the West in the sense that
41:18
the Israelis the Jewish people in Israel have no home country that we've already
41:24
said is the West so this genocide is our genocide
41:30
if it is a genocide it's it's a way of maintaining coherence of the West
41:36
projects well we know that that project is also in difficulty and I would ask
41:42
you have you envisaged what the American withdrawal from Israel might be might
41:47
look like won't look like the American withdrawal from Afghanistan but it might
41:53
happen thank you the question regardless but can you answer those questions yeah thank you look that's a very interesting
41:59
question Jonathan and it's one that really deserves uh a a proper discussion
42:07
um you see I I I don't think that the Zionist Enterprise in Palestine is
42:15
conceived as genocidal it's not it's not that you know
42:21
um it's that it's set out to uh eliminate
42:28
in terms of life I mean the the Zionist
42:33
project is about removing the non-jewish presence in Palestine now that removal
42:40
can includes uh killing but it's not
42:45
primarily um aimed in in in the sense that
42:51
genocide implies however I really have to say there is an exception to what I've just said and
42:59
that is Gaza because the the the the the the
43:04
siege of Gaza leading to uh malnutrition
43:10
lack of basic uh provision for life to maintain life
43:16
suggests a kind of genocidal intent uh and and that has to be kept in mind yes
43:23
but you know it's um there is a and you also initially
43:30
asked about were there any was there any hope from these current divisions in in
43:37
Israel inside Israel you know that has been something that Palestinians have has kept kept them going for ages the
43:46
idea that Israeli Society will implode from within and uh you know and they've
43:53
got all these divisions between Oriental Jews and Ashkenazi Jews and
43:58
um you now we have the the so-called demo democracy
44:05
demonstrations against an auto autocratic Benjamin Netanyahu and so on
44:11
I've always thought in the end these are all exaggerated I mean the Hope from
44:18
them is exaggerated for the Palestinians because when push comes to shove they
44:24
will band together precise especially for the reason you said they don't have a home country so they want to hang on
44:32
to what they've got and whether that means giving up on principles and so on which now they are indulging in in demos
44:40
and and objections and protests um when it comes to it they will band
44:47
together so I'm afraid there's no Comfort there for the Palestinians
44:54
coming yes you certain pink shirt as the microphone
45:00
all right uh firstly thanks for speaking to us today it's been really interesting my name is Jonathan parcel and I'm from
45:07
the International Center of Justice Palestinians I do public affairs and Communications my question was about the
45:16
it was in I found it interesting that you mentions China I mean obviously in terms of
45:21
the West you know it's Slants towards Israel means that there's
45:27
very little chance for it being a valid you know broker of this one-state solution do you think that China has any
45:33
sincere interest in Israel or Palestine or do you think it would use it as a pawn
45:38
like in terms of a democratic state do you think there's any interest in that and would there be an alternative
45:43
third-party broker that you would suggest instead yeah yeah good question
45:49
um look first of all the Palestinians are not in a position to spurn and refuse any possibility they
46:00
are open to um where there can be support for them
46:05
um and that's hence the reason for the interest in Iran which is a close
46:11
neighbor and which has at least publicly espouse their cause now as for China my
46:19
sense of China is that it plays quite safe the the China is
46:26
is is very interested in stability what he calls stability because it's an
46:33
economic power and so it doesn't take sides in that way I don't think so and
46:40
what it would favor is a a more balanced Regional Arrangement hence the
46:48
reproachment between Iran and Saudi Arabia which was broken by China That's not by chance they want to see a more
46:57
stable Middle East which is very good for their economic interests so that's
47:04
really as far as it goes I don't see the Chinese at this moment at this point
47:11
um taking the Palestinian side allness or the Israeli side they they would
47:16
rather you know everything was sort of rather balanced I think the the other part of the equation the
47:22
the one state um democracy also you've talked about it
47:28
being a secular one party's one state solution is is that also going to be a
47:34
horrendously difficult thing to try and Achieve amongst people who live in israel-palestine
47:41
no because I've never I I don't describe it as secular I really don't I have
47:46
nothing to say about that because in the Democratic State I in Envision
47:53
um the communities who live in it and who practice a certain religion must be free
48:00
to continue doing that so that um there is and that's part of your
48:07
equal rights that's part of that's a right that you express and you live
48:12
according to your face or you speak your language all this should be available I
48:21
mean in a way rather like Britain today which people would criticize here it's
48:27
not a democracy but nevertheless it's constructed in a way where communities
48:32
are free to practice their religions speak their language educate their
48:38
children in a particular way that's that's what I see thank you um now
48:45
you over there my name is Jonathan rosenthead um I'm in Jewish voice of Labor also in the British committee for
48:52
the universities of Palestine which promotes the academic boycott of Israeli and academic institutions the question
48:59
I'd like to ask is to do with um the three Alternatives that we have for
49:05
the possible future states of that Land There is the continuation of
49:11
basically a Jewish uh oppressive regime denying rights to
49:18
Palestinians uh the one and in the middle we have the two-state solution in
49:23
which the only viable one would be a Palestine which was a public state with no no borders no resources that no
49:30
control and the third one which is therefore entirely more desirable is the the one
49:37
Democratic state but to make that work first of all you have to achieve is and to achieve it you have to have a
49:43
mechanism that is plausible for how it will be ruled and it isn't I think as
49:48
simple as just get one person one vote because to get there you need to have some kind of guarantees uh to enable the
49:56
parties to live together as has been happening sort of in the north of Ireland and so on so the que you you
50:01
were very careful I think and said that the the rights in the Wonder Democratic
50:07
State should be equivalent you didn't say equal and I wondered if that is in your book and you don't want to say more
50:13
about it now or whether it is in your book and you would like to say more about it now
50:18
um thank you for that summary yes indeed those are the choices yes before us to
50:24
continue the status quo two states or the one Democratic State indeed and then
50:31
you're saying uh how will this be governed how do you ensure
50:36
um various things do happen and don't happen um now I have not dealt really with that
50:44
question and I'll tell you why it's not because it's not important of course it is and
50:50
it will have to happen at some point but because the
50:56
difficulty of arriving act a one state is so huge it really is so huge that it
51:05
takes up all the energies and all the Ingenuity and the resources of the
51:10
Palestinians to to get there um and uh when when I talk about equal
51:17
rights I really do mean equal rights that is whatever is allowed it's sitting
51:23
the citizens of that state are all alike they are all the same in terms of Rights
51:30
and in terms of the rule of law there is no distinction whatever between Jews or
51:37
Armenians or Palestinian Arabs or any of that now you might ask which would be the the
51:44
sort of Next Issue okay so you don't want to talk
51:50
about how this new state would be governed and so on
51:55
um and you talk about the the enormity of the Obstacle of creating it
52:01
then how it's going to happen how is it going to happen well I mean I will tell
52:07
you and as I've argued in the book it won't in my view it won't happen
52:14
as a result of a well-ordered movement of
52:21
gaining international support um it won't happen like that and it also
52:28
answers some of the questions that were also asked about China and help from outside and and so
52:37
on it's in the nature of oppressive regimes like the Israeli
52:42
regime to have no strategy whatever
52:47
to deal with dissent or protest from the colonized people let's say except more
52:54
violence historically we know very well that's all they can come up with what was
53:00
created in Palestine was really really bad and I I really mean that I'm not
53:08
talking about internal Zionist reasoning or the idea that the Holocaust and the
53:13
Jews deserve this and you know it you know it's the least we could do and let's help them and so on
53:20
you feel badly about how a group is being treated and may I say badly treated by
53:28
you as the West what you don't do is solve their problem at the expense of another people
53:35
and that is what I mean by something really bad happened in Palestine if
53:41
anybody else has got any more questions we probably yes you at the back and also I think you wanted it could we take two
53:47
or three more questions regardless yeah we're finished so yes the lady at the back
53:54
thank you very much my question is why it is more about how
54:00
we can think about the biggest allyship of Israeli people and the youth
54:08
um who are born now in a Homeland for them um the reason why I'm asking this
54:14
question is because my friend who identified as Israeli but want to
54:19
dissociate themselves from the structure the political structure of Israel have decided that the biggest way of showing
54:27
a light ship is to leave the country do you believe that the Youth of Israel
54:33
today needs to show Elijah by leaving the country or to actually work on this
54:41
one state and therefore live in the state yeah look they won't leave the country I mean
54:48
not enough of them will leave the country certainly for for your question
54:54
to to be a real question um they will remain a majority will remain and I would like very much I wish
55:02
I could see a movement among young people saying come on we have to end
55:07
this let's try and see how we can work this together uh you know I'd really
55:13
like to see that at the moment I can't see it and and the immigration from
55:20
Israel which is taking place all the time um is not it will not be enough
55:27
to resolve the issue if you like by that means it won't and then I think
55:35
perhaps we should because we've we've gone over by about 10-15 minutes that have been so many great questions and
55:40
answers it forced you to ask the last question
55:46
Brad that you've partly answered this but I share your pessimism about any
55:52
kind of external influence having anything to do with the solution
55:58
firstly because of the reasons you mentioned there is no will in the west but secondly we talk
56:05
a lot about South Africa and the parallels one has to remember that there was a referendum at the time when
56:12
apartheid was being dismantled it was a whites only referendum which overwhelmingly voted for
56:20
the negotiations to end apartheid we are not in that situation in
56:25
israel-palestine and never will be so I share your pessimism I think the solution is local I think
56:33
the solution is bloody and I think we can all sit here and wax eloquent but I doubt that there's anything that we can
56:39
do to change it and I wondered whether you saw any possibility of it being any
56:46
different from that is that I thought if if there's any possibility of it not being bloody like
56:54
that yeah look I'm glad you mentioned South Africa because it's the only near
57:01
parallel to to the situation in Palestine that will face yes and indeed
57:07
um many of us are inspired by the example of South Africa and the example of the anti-apartheid movement which I
57:15
think is partly the BDS movement which as you know has been is a Palestinian
57:20
initiative which is evocative of the of the
57:25
anti-apartheid movement um I really would like to think that I was
57:32
wrong I really would because you can see already you know more than 130
57:40
Palestinians have been killed by the Israelis from January um it's it's it's incredible I mean at
57:47
the moment as I speak a little toddler of two was shot dead by an Israeli
57:53
soldier so you know it's it's a it's a terrible situation one doesn't like to
57:59
see more of that but I can only
58:04
say what I project would happen based on what I see
58:11
the forces that I see in the situation if only if only the somebody on the
58:19
Israeli side or some group or some party political party
58:25
were to say enough enough let's sit down and work out how we're going to do this
58:31
if only I can't see it happening I really can't and the ruling isos which I
58:38
think somebody else pointed out earlier this Jewish Supremacy this Jewish
58:43
Supremacy which is seems to be animating not just the ruling Elite but a lot a
58:50
lot of people in Israeli Society this Jewish Supremacy that's taken hold
58:56
makes it very difficult right well I think that brings us to an
59:02
end and to thank God very much thank to all of you for coming this evening if you haven't bought goddess book please
59:07
do Pluto press they're all at the back waiting to sell copies God is ready to sign them downstairs there's a bar and
59:14
the front line Club very kindly hosted us tonight Palestine Deep dive with Pluto press and the Frontline Club a
59:21
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