Video Infoblog: The Israel & Palestine Conflict Explained w/ Rashid Khalidi
8 Apr 2024
Tom Delgado travels to Columbia University to interview Professor Rashid Khalidi about the current war in Gaza and his book The Hundred Years' War on Palestine. He covers the history of Zionism, the Palestinian people, peace talks, and the way forward.
Transcript
0:01
hey everybody how you doing uh here to do something a little different today normally giving tours of neighborhoods and things but today we're going to have
0:06
a very serious conversation with an expert on a field that is very relevant today uh we're going to talk to uh the
0:12
Edward S professor of modern Arab studies here at Columbia University uh his name is Rashid khi he recently
0:18
authored the book uh the Hundred Years War on Palestine uh very important very good book and we're going to talk about
0:24
what's going on to kind of learn I think it's very important to have these discussions and the more information and the more discuss question that are out
0:30
there the better so I guess no more delay cam what do you think should we just go up there and have a chat with
0:35
the professor let's do it let's do it Professor if you want to do me a favor if you could just take your hands like
0:41
this and do a little clap you ready to go yep all right so I'm here uh with uh Professor Rasheed khi we're going to
0:47
we're going to talk about his latest book everything that's going on in the world a tall order but uh get started
0:52
how you doing Professor I've been better sure I guess I should have expected that
0:58
um but I first of all I want to congratulate on your book um you obviously wrote it a little bit ago but it's an incredible book a great primer
1:04
into everything that's going on uh so I fig we could just kind of start there um so the way you divided up your book I
1:11
thought was very helpful you divid it up I guess into six kind of time periods or dates that you consider Declarations of
1:17
War um and I think what it did a good job of is not only talking about the facts and things that are going on but
1:24
how it relates and how it affects the people who are there right so it's not just dates and talks and this
1:30
it puts in perspective so I thought we could just start there if that's okay with you mhm great well then let's start there so the first one the first chapter
1:36
you have you talk about the year 1917 I guess quickly I guess uh maybe you could
1:42
talk about the significance and we can just get started there yeah um I start with 1917 because that's the year in
1:49
which the British occupied Palestine and issued the B for declaration and in my
1:56
understanding and my analysis and the argument I'm making that start the series of events that lead us to the
2:01
present you know you could start at another starting point you could start with the beginning of Zionism you could
2:07
start any other time um earlier or even later um you could start in 1967 but I
2:13
think that the dynamic that we have seen without exception starts in 1917 great
2:19
power arriving MH and endorsing this National project the Zionist project and
2:26
that's where I think everything starts rolling I do not think that you can understand what's happening
2:32
in Palestine or the creation of Israel without understanding the enormous importance of great power involvement um
2:39
and that's why I start with the balford Declaration and the British occupation of Palestine and to be and to just to clarify the balford Declaration being
2:45
the British saying we endorse a national home for the Jewish people his Majesty's
2:50
government looks with favor on the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine it being understood blah blah blah right and what
2:56
they say positively about their being being a Jewish people and they're being entitled to a national home and Britain
3:03
supporting that is not matched by anything about the Palestinians they talk about civil and religious rights
3:09
for the existing non-jewish community so you don't exist as a people you are not named the people who are named and the
3:16
people who have National rights and political rights are the Jewish people right so that sets the framework from
3:22
then to today and if you look at the way which in which Israel is regarded and the way in which the Palestinians are
3:28
regarded from the establishment of of Israel to the present it replicates that
3:34
uneven playing field where the British have special regard for Zionism and absolutely no regard for the
3:39
Palestinians in the balfor Declaration and later on in the Mandate for Palestine that they administer under the
3:45
League of Nations and this bord declaration uh just to I guess also clarify is is kind of the culmination a
3:51
little bit in a way of of decades now little of settlements and and different I guess Aliyah or alot they were talking
3:57
about different groups and waves of uh that had started in the late 1800s I guess to pick up steam and Zionism being
4:05
kind of the the Nationalist drive to establish a right um so so the the British kind of get involved and I think
4:11
what was interesting also in the book is that you talk about how it was kind of a uh a a political endorsement more than a
4:18
religious endorsement because in fact Bal for himself right was in the past had had kind of indorsed the opposite
4:24
side he was you know um so I thought that was very interesting when bfor was prime minister when he was yeah the
4:30
British Parliament under his leadership passed one of the most anti-Semitic acts in British history of the alien
4:35
Exclusion Act to keep Jewish refugees fleeing pams in Russia from entering
4:40
Britain so you know philosemitism or love of Jews or anything like that was
4:45
not really the driving Factor it was strategic the British wanted to control Palestine and they saw the Zionist
4:53
project as what could become what a British official later called a little loyal Jewish olster in a sea of hostile
4:59
Arabs so that's what they were after yeah yeah and it's I guess also too to add on to that those same pograms are
5:05
what pushed a lot of the early settlements into what what became Israel and also what what pushed a lot of the
5:11
settlement to New York even a lot of the Jewish immigration came here because much larger numbers of people right who
5:17
left the persecution of zaris Russia ended up here or in other countries of
5:23
immigration like Canada Australia New Zealand then ever went to Palestine uh the ones who went to Palestine were
5:29
people who believed in Zionism which is a national project saying that the Jews are a modern people deserving a modern
5:36
nation state um and it was a movement started you know political movement started in 1897 Theodore Herzel was the
5:43
founder um and had been searching for an external Patron because they understood that to colonize Palestine they used
5:50
that term it's not my term it's their term to colonize Palestine and to
5:55
establish a Jewish State there they needed a great power Patron so Herzel went around Europe Europe went to the Germans Kaiser went to the French and so
6:02
on his successor Kim vitman uh uh hit Pay Dirt with the British during World
6:08
War I and that's part of the Genesis of this of this Bal for declaration right and I I think it's interesting so I'm
6:14
just going to keep adding on to the things you say because they're so interesting but when you bring up the the word and the the term colonization
6:20
uh it's interesting how you say that's the term they use because this is coming from a Time the 1800s when that isn't
6:25
the dirty word it is today exactly um which I think is an important Point as we continue the conversation attitudes
6:30
have changed towards this idea in fact right up to World War II up to World War II you know the colonial Powers
6:36
dominated the world and we're proud of being Colonial Powers settler colonialism was a good thing doing what
6:42
we did to Native Americans or doing what the British did to Native populations in
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New Zealand or Canada or Australia was a good thing and so the Zionist project
6:52
which is on a national project right also saw itself as a settler Colonial
6:57
project with a right to Palestine whether biblical or otherwise but it
7:03
understood that the process it was undertaking involved doing to the native population what settler colonial
7:08
projects do and there's a ton of documentation of how Herzel and vitman
7:13
and Boran all the and jabotinsky all the earlier Le earliest leaders of the Zionist movement saw things in that way
7:20
after World War II things changed uh the zionists came into conflict with the British and they started to portray
7:27
themselves as anti-colonial but the settler Colonial process was embedded in
7:32
how they uh approached Palestine and dealt with it uh and they weren't embarrassed about using those terms so
7:39
you had something called the Jewish colonization agency that's their name for that's not my name for it uh and
7:44
that existed up until 19 I think 58 MH so uh yes something changes of course
7:50
after World War II but the nature of the process you can look at it today in the West Bank if this isn't settler
7:55
colonialism I don't know what it is and it's interesting you bring that up because I guess we're going to go to that part part here in a second but
8:02
postor War II around the time that Israel is being established Independence all that is around is the opposite is
8:08
happening in the rest of the world other places are actually shaking off exact colonization in Africa and all these in
8:14
the Middle East all these different things you got all these Independence movements breaking away from colonization at the same time a colonization project is being started
8:21
right or continuing at the very Le or successful it's established as a nation so decolonization is taking place in
8:28
many parts of the world after World War II and in Palestine that process is you know successful right right which brings
8:35
I guess to the next part uh I'm sorry if I'm talking too fast let me know if I need to slow down I drink a lot of coffee today so okay so the ne that
8:42
brings us to the next part which is 1947 you have the next the next which is 1947 you got post World War II and I guess
8:48
the UN partition plan here uh and then obviously in 1948 you have Independence I guess maybe you could talk a little
8:54
bit about this period as well right um one of the problems with the the way in
8:59
which what happens in 1947-48 is it's looked at in
9:05
isolation um people don't see for example the impact of the Palestinians
9:10
on the Palestinians of their failed Revolt of the late 1930s when the British bring in 100,000 troops kill
9:17
wound imprison and Exile maybe 16 17% of the adult male population confiscate all
9:23
the weapons destroy the Palestinian national movement build up the Armed Forces of the Zionist movement train
9:29
them arm them expand them and so on uh they don't also think about the shift
9:35
that takes place in World War II where the British Empire really is is on the ropes and you have two new superpowers
9:41
emerge with the J with the uh German attack the Nazi attack on Russia and
9:47
with the Japanese attack on the United States suddenly Britain and France and the Old Colonial powers are dwarfed by
9:53
these two new Giants these are the superpowers uh and that's enormously important for what follows for 4748
10:01
finally there's the Holocaust um everything in Palestine is affected one way or another by these events in Europe
10:08
these events like the pgrs of the 1880s and 1890s or 1904 1905 in Russia or um
10:17
the rise to power of Hitler in the 1930s immigration from Russia and
10:22
immigration from Germany is driven by European anti-Semitism uh it there's a nationalist project there but many
10:28
people are just fleing for their lives or because the persecution is in intolerable and you have then the
10:35
Holocaust this massacre of 6 million people 6 million Jews and millions and millions of others um and that in turn
10:42
has an enormous effect it has an effect in particular on the western Powers uh who are The Victors of World War II all
10:49
of whom are guilty of not doing enough to stop the and all those kind of things in particular because of the because of
10:56
the racist immigration laws that we had in this country and that the British had and that other
11:01
countries had such that people who could have been saved before World War II
11:06
could not get out there was no place to go I mean I was talking to a friend the other day who described to me how her
11:13
parents had to scramble to get visas to get out of Czechoslovakia uh and finally managed
11:19
and so she was born in the United States but other members of the family died in the Holocaust because they couldn't get
11:25
a place of Refuge uh after uh after the Nazis took over Czechoslovakia 3839 and
11:31
so there's a sense of there's a there's a there's a sense of guilt and they had good reason to be feel guilty and that
11:38
in turn spurred the the the support that the Zionist project got uh in the United
11:44
Nations in 1947 so the partition plan that's adopted by the United Nations General Assembly in November of 1947 is
11:52
adopted because you have these two new superpowers both of which push for it the Soviet Union and the United States
11:57
because you have this deep sense of guilt on the part of Western countries and also because you have strategic
12:03
motives so both the Soviets and the Americans thought that they could gain Advantage by from the establishment of
12:09
Israel strategic Advantage just like the British back in 1917 the essential
12:15
motivation is not some deep compassion on the part of Statesmen in Washington
12:20
or politicians in in in Moscow it's a calculation of advantage for their country uh in the Middle East M and so
12:28
this partition plan is proposed 47 and I a common thing you'll hear a lot is okay
12:33
well uh Israelis accept the partian plan and the Palestinians reject it m and I I
12:39
think this is an important point because a lot of it is kind of nitpick people nitpick the boundaries and all this and the other one in reality it's the
12:45
principle of the issue I mean it's the principle of you're going to come in here and tell us what is our's not
12:50
exactly I mean from a Palestine perspective under the Covenant of the League of Nations which supposedly
12:57
governed the mandate system which is enforce up until 1948 and which was in place starting the early 1920s starting
13:02
early 1922 the Mandate for Palestine is adopted um Palestine and other Arab
13:07
provinces of the Ottoman Empire are supposed to be independent countries the Palestinians say how are you establishing this Jewish National home
13:13
in what is supposed to be our independent country you have promised a self-determination we never got it the
13:19
charter of the United Nations takes us a step further and says all colonized peoples have a right to self-determination the Palestinians say
13:25
we're two we're two-thirds of the population we're the overwhelming majority we are the indigenous population on what basis do you take
13:32
more than half of our country and give it to this minority which owns less than 8% of the land so most of Palestine
13:39
including most of the fertile land over 55% is given by the United Nations or or
13:46
or uh is is uh uh established by the United Nations as a Jewish State and the
13:52
remaining 4 some odd perc is to be an Arab State um and the Palestinians refuse this they say it's our country
13:58
you're giving us less than half of it we're 2third of the population the charter says we're entitled to self-determination on what basis do you
14:05
violate those Charter prisions well because the United States and the Soviet Union had the votes in the general assembly and bullied and bribed
14:11
countries uh to go along uh and so the general assembly passes this resolution it ABS does absolutely nothing to
14:19
enforce the resolution to ensure that an Arab State comes into being and from
14:25
1947 onwards what you can call a civil war develops between the two communities
14:30
in Palestine the overwhelming Palestinian majority which had been crushed by the British a few years few years earlier and the Jewish minority
14:38
led by the Zionist movement which had been armed and trained and reinforced by the British and had the support of the
14:44
two great superpowers MH um the the result is an overwhelming Victory long
14:50
before Israel is established in May 1948 long before Arab armies enter for the
14:56
militias of the Zionist movement they overrun Arab cities overrun Arab Villages expel their population such
15:03
that by the time Israel is established on May 15th 1948 over 300,000 Palestinians have been made refugees the
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cities of Jaffa haa ban tiberias safad have been overrun and emptied of their
15:16
Arab population so before the 1948 war between the Arab countries and Israel
15:21
begins Israel has already overrun territories that were supposed to go to the Arab State and the United Nations
15:28
does Absolut absolutely nothing it's perfectly clear that what the superpowers intended was the creation of
15:34
a Jewish State they had no particular interest and absolutely no skin in the
15:39
game as far as an Arab state was concerned nobody lifted a finger the Arab armies enter and the rest of it we
15:45
know Israel eventually it's a it's a close fight uh Israel suffers 6,000
15:51
people killed the Arab Army suffer many more and the Arabs are eventually defeated and there's an armis this there
15:56
are Armistice agreements in 1949 in the meantime Israel is established on May 15th 1948 MH and those and those uh
16:03
300,000 you were saying that who were expelled before the uh Independence 1948 added on to the 400,000 that were
16:10
spelled during the actual War creating I think like 720 is, people we don't know the exact number
16:15
7750 in that range right and that's what was considered some people have said more that's not the point right it's not
16:21
the point the overwhelming majority of the Arab population of what becomes Israel are driven out or forced to flee
16:26
or flee in Terror and this is the and this is a phrase and this is a term that everyone hears called the nakba which is
16:31
the catastrophe and and where everyone is driven out leaving behind I guess a
16:37
few hundred thousand still within the new C uh new state of israela uh and that we'll get to that in a second but
16:43
that's I guess 4748 and then it brings us to the next I guess chapter uh so starting in 48 all the way to 1967 you
16:50
have basically a military uh occupation uh of the Palestinian people within Israel they're they're under military
16:56
rule until 1966 and then brings us to 1967 which is the next uh section of
17:01
your book I guess we talk we could talk here what what happened in 1967 I mean I I I framed these chapters
17:09
the ones we've already talked about and the one that we're about to talk about the 67 chapter as declarations war on
17:15
the Palestinians because what I'm arguing is that this is not just a struggle between two peoples I mean
17:21
there are now two peoples that's not the point it's a struggle first of all in which there's a big fat imperialist
17:27
thumb on the scales in favor first of the Zionist movement and later the state of Israel and that's external Powers
17:33
Yeah that have supported first the Zionist project and then the state of Israel and secondly um you have this
17:39
process of settler colonialism ongoing MH and it's not a fair fight actually
17:45
it's a fight between this this national movement supported by outside powers and the Palestinians who really are
17:51
outgunned and outman they're not outman they're more numerous but they're outgunned uh and they don't have very
17:57
strong support and this is an attack on them is how I see the whole process from 1917 onwards sometimes the actual
18:04
fighting is done by the British as in 1936 to 1939 when they crush this Revolt
18:09
they bring in 100,000 troops the Royal Air Force and so on so forth mostly after that the fighting is done by the
18:15
Israeli Army MH um with this support by external powers and the thing that I try
18:21
and focus on in the 67 chapter is not the well-known details of what happens during the war or the occupation of
18:27
Sinai and the Golan and the w bank and the Gaza Strip in Jerusalem but rather the role of the United States so this is
18:33
an Israeli War it's an Israeli preemptive strike on the Arab countries that have massed their armies but it is
18:40
a war launched by Israel after getting a green light from Washington and from this point on the United States become
18:47
has already become one of the main armors of Israel Israel fights the 67 War mainly with British and French
18:52
weapons but it's already beginning to get us weapons but from 67 on the United States has the big the metaphor of the
18:59
big fat thumb on the scales the United States is supplying the Weaponry with which Israel maintains absolute military
19:06
superiority over all of its enemies combined and it also is providing the
19:11
Diplomatic cover so the United States after the 67 War um Engineers the uh
19:18
adoption by the UN Security Council of a resolution called 242 yeah and that
19:24
basically gives the Israelis what they want it it doesn't force them to withdraw from from the territories they occupied until they get what what they
19:31
want which is recognition of their state by the Arab countries peace treaties and
19:36
an elimination of the Palestinian refugee question the the problems created in 40 48 49 by the occupation of
19:44
most of the Arab state by the expulsion of all these Palestinians these are swept under the rug by 242 and that's
19:50
what Israel wanted so the United States is running diplomatic interference for Israel from 67 onwards just as it has
19:57
been doing in the security Council in the last several months uh preventing the adoption of any resolution that did
20:03
anything that Israel didn't want that's not a new phenomena right uh that's been going on for 50 odd years and it's that
20:09
section I'm sorry the the resolution 242 has been the basis of all negotiations
20:14
everything ever since ever since and it's interesting you bring up we forgot to mention I forgot to mention at the beginning was um you brought up the also
20:21
the right of return this idea of uh the right of return which I think is very important and something that you know
20:27
for Palestinians has been categorically rejected uh from the beginning by Israel by Israel exactly as opposed to let's
20:33
say the ability of of Jews from all over the country to then all over the world all over the world sorry that's what I meant to say uh to be able to return to
20:40
Israel I think maybe could maybe you could speak on that real quick just before we move on back in 1948 uh the
20:46
general assembly um after passing the resolution that you know the partition
20:51
resolution in 1947 uh in the wake of the expulsion of these hundreds of thousands of
20:56
Palestinians passes uh un General Assembly resolution 194 which calls for the right of Return of these of
21:03
Palestinian refugees the right of return and compensation this is this is one of the many things that swept under the rug
21:09
by 242 it talks about a just resolution of the palestin of the refugee problem MH it doesn't say how and why it doesn't
21:17
talk about return or or restitution or compensation it simply says a just solution that can mean anything and they
21:22
don't even mention Palestinians as in so many of these International documents which determine the fate of Palestine
21:28
and the people pans are not consulted or mentioned nobody asked them about the Mandate nobody asked them about the B
21:34
for declaration nobody ask them about 242 they don't exist they're not at the table and that's the situation today and
21:40
that's been the situation for the Palestinians pretty much since the beginning there are exceptions um the
21:46
Osa negotiations the Madrid peace conference and so on we'll get to those too I know and it's interesting with the 242 just uh it's interesting you
21:52
mentioned that they weren't at the table negotiating the language and things because the language is what's pointed to a lot of the times
21:59
for example the territor question so the language is withdraw from territories as
22:05
opposed to all the territor exactly so they can point say it just says from territory so they can withdraw from a few but leave the rest that was
22:11
Ambassador Goldberg Lord caran are the US ambassador to the United Nations the
22:17
British permanent representative Lord kidan and Aban the Israeli foreign minister are the who's in New York I
22:24
mean my father worked for the United Nations secretaria and his job was was in what was then called United political
22:31
Security Council PSP whatever a political and Security Council Affairs
22:36
division of the secretari so his job was to sit in the security Council behind the under secretary and provide the
22:42
materials necessary for them so I I knew I was following this stuff I was in the council chamber uh throughout the June
22:48
War for example as a in the visitors Gallery uh watching this happened uh and I talk about this in the book actually a
22:55
little bit um and this is a resolution drafted by the United States Britain and Israel to serve Israeli interests
23:02
essentially U later on in November I was there in June by November then they drafted it the same process was going on
23:09
okay well I guess we can keep moving then I S cover 1967 uh what so the next the next period
23:15
being the next year being the next chapter being 1982 right right let's go let's get into it I mean one of the
23:22
things about this book um you you you mentioned that I I divided into six chapters one of things I tried to do
23:29
with this book as you said was to show how these historical events affected
23:35
people and I figured the best way to do that was to describe it through the experience of people of myself and for
23:41
earlier people uh for earlier periods people I knew so I use my uncle's
23:46
Memoirs I use uh what was told to me by my aunts my uncles my parents I use the
23:52
Memoir of my wife's uh grandfather things like that I use me of people I
23:59
knew uh and I use conversations I had with people and then my own personal experiences to show how this affected
24:06
people and uh in the 67 chapter that we just talked about um I start with my own
24:13
experience at the UN in the visitors gallery of the security Council in the 82 chapter and watching a ceasefire
24:20
resolution not be passed why are they not passing a ceas fire resolution well my father later explains it to me and
24:27
that's that's the beginning of that chap in the 82 chapter uh we were in beut uh
24:32
my wife and I we were both uh uh I was teaching at the American University of Beirut I was doing research and I was
24:38
also involved in Palestinian politics and my wife was the editor of the Palestine news agency English language
24:43
bulletin and was in the area being bombed on the first day of the 1982 War
24:48
when Israel invaded Lebanon and eventually besieged Beirut and drove the PLO out and then car uh engineered
24:55
massacres in Palestinian refugee camps uh afterwards MH so I describe in that
25:01
at the beginning of that chapter my own personal experiences you know the bombing beginning my wife is stuck in this neighborhood being bombed I have
25:07
two kids in school one in a school in one place another in a school in another place my wife is pregnant M um I just
25:14
describe that whole per I describe it from a personal perspective how we found out about the Sabra and Cha massacres at
25:21
the end of the war right and so this and this all is I guess around these these events are happening around the bombing
25:27
of Lebanon pursuing the Poo who at the time in Lebanon with the intent of getting rid of the PO and driving them
25:34
out of Lebanon but in the process you know civilians Die Part neighbor entire neighborhood is destroyed almost 20,000
25:40
Palestinians and Lebanese are killed in the course of this Israeli Invasion um and what I talk about in the book is
25:48
that this is not just an Israeli Invasion right before the then defense minister Ariel Sheron launches this War
25:56
uh uh he he goes to Washington mhm and he talks to the Secretary of State General hay and gets an American green
26:03
light for driving the PLO out of Lebanon for driving the syrians out of Lebanon
26:09
and for creating a Lebanese government that will do what Israel wants sign a peace treaty with Israel um and this is
26:14
seen as an American objective for Cold War reasons it has to do with with you know sympathy for Israel and sympathy
26:20
for Israel's version of its conflict with the Palestinians but it's mainly seen as
26:26
these are Soviet proxies and you know hay and and President Reagan were people who saw everything in Cold War black and
26:32
white terms um so Sheron basically sells them a bill of goods um and that is
26:39
That's the basis for the war it's not not just an Israeli War it's an Israeli American war right it's a war fought
26:44
with the endorsement of the United States with weapons supplied by the United States and with American diplomatic support which prevents the
26:51
war being ended on anything but Israel's terms does that sound familiar it's exactly what's happened dozens of times
26:58
since 1967 so I think if you do not bring in that International Dimension whether in
27:04
82 or 67 or the war in Gaza uh you're seeing things from a perspective which
27:10
is false essentially it's leaving out everything it leaves out everything really not everything it leaves out so many important factors that you
27:16
understand nothing right and I think it's important point that you bring up the Cold War because I mean I don't think people understand how important
27:21
the Cold War was to any decision made on Bo policy in that entire period all the
27:26
way the early 9s andly that really colored everything um from really from
27:32
World War II on right I mean that it's one of the reasons the United States and the Soviet Union support the partition
27:37
resolution 1947 they each think they'll get cold war Advantage by doing it they're on the same side strangely but
27:44
they're doing it for Cold War reasons same thing happens in 56 when they're on the same side opposing Israel Britain
27:50
and France when they invade Egypt again for Cold War reasons and that holds as you say right up to the early '90s when
27:56
the Cold War briefly ends we're back we're back in a cold war but anyway in a hot war in Ukraine actually yeah uh and
28:04
I I guess I guess just to piggyback on that so the PLO is driven out of Lebanon uh in the process and this is I think an
28:10
interesting point that you bring up uh I've heard you bring up in other interviews the PLO is driven out of Lebanon and what you Lebanon has no more
28:17
PLO but Hezbollah exactly Rises right after so and I heard you bring this up in an interview with regards to what's
28:23
happening today where even secret secretary uh Lloyd Austin bringing up this idea that uh you know you can by by
28:30
killing civilians and all this you may win a a battle as opposed but strategically in the long term that's
28:36
not going to help the actual you know on the contrary I mean Israel has suffered enormously from the blowback of the
28:44
Lebanon invasion of 1982 um it drove the PLO leadership and
28:49
and its military forces out of Lebanon but it by killing 20,000 people I mean
28:54
people say the end of the war was the the the the part of the PLO it was the death of 20,000 people the Ming of tens
29:01
of thousands of others and the creation among Lebanese of deep enduring resentments that produced hisbah it
29:08
wasn't the Palestinians who produced it it wasn't the Soviets it wasn't you know the syrians or the Iranians it was the
29:14
Grievances created by the way in which Israel operated in Lebanon from the moment they crossed the border and had
29:20
been operating actually before that um and that's where you get this force that people talk about as if it's some Golem
29:27
or some you know robot or Monster well this is a product of Israel's invasion of Lebanon in fact
29:33
Barak later on defense minister of Israel later on prime minister of Israel said there was no hisbah before we came
29:40
we created it it was a result of our occupation um he has the Habit sometimes of saying things that are true as our
29:47
other Israeli Prime Ministers another one has been saying entirely quite perceptive things about this war on Gaza
29:54
so has Barack um they weren't so perceptive when they were prime minister
29:59
well I guess that brings us to the next I guess the next period which would be you have 1987 to 1980 I'm sorry 1995 um
30:06
so I guess yeah a lot lot happened there I guess we could maybe you could start off what you think would uh be worth
30:12
mentioning well I mean it's this is a little harder to fit into the into the
30:18
into the um framework that I used which is a war a war on Palestine but what I'm
30:23
describing here is the so-call peace process um um and this is something that
30:29
I was intimately acquainted with because I was a an adviser to the Palestinian
30:36
delegation in the Madrid peace talks of 1991 and I continued in the negotiations
30:43
that went on for nine different additional sessions in Washington up to the summer of
30:48
1993 um and I was in touch with people who have been involved thereafter and so I was I knew exactly what was going on
30:56
and what I try and argue in this chapter is that the so-called Oso peace process
31:03
was in fact not a process designed to bring peace between Palestinians and
31:08
Israelis um what President Bush George HW and secretary Baker envisaged at
31:14
Madrid was to bring about a comprehensive peace settlement between
31:20
Israel and the Arab countries and in fact they achieved the peace treaty between Israel and Jordan and they were
31:25
very close at least twice to peace treaty with Syria and Lebanon um you can
31:31
read the accounts in particular of the Syrian of the Israeli negotiator adamar rabinovich um who makes it very clear
31:39
that they were this close and every account says that so to to their credit
31:44
um the US government were really trying to achieve peace between the Arab countries in Israel and as I say they
31:50
achieved one treaty or helped to achieve one treaty and another was very very close failed but it was very with the
31:56
Palestinians however that wasn't the case we were not allowed in our negotiations to deal with a final
32:04
resolution of this conflict nor a peace treaty nor the establishment of a Palestinian State nor borders nor ending
32:12
the occupation nor stopping Israeli colonization of the occupied territories nor the issue of Jerusalem nor the issue
32:18
of refugees nor the issue of water in other words all the important issues were off the table all we were allowed
32:24
to talk about were interim self-government Arrangements under a continuing Israeli military
32:30
occupation and in a circumstance in which Israeli occupation sorry uh
32:36
colonization and settlement and appropriation of land and expansion of their footprint would continue and when
32:42
we brought up in the negotiations how can you ask us to negotiate over a a pie
32:47
which the Israelis are eating while we negotiate the Americans said nothing even though in their original documents
32:52
and the original guarantees and and and and the the framework for the
32:58
negotiations supposedly that the status quo was supposed to be maintained but the United States wasn't willing to do that essentially this was designed to
33:06
prevent Israel from having to make the hard decisions about ending its occupation about stopping the the
33:12
colonization of the occupied territories and about recognizing an independent Palestinian State those things were
33:19
never part of the negotiations no those will be dealt within final status negotiations well they still haven't been dealt with and we're talking about
33:25
negotiations that started in 199 MH and it and I think within that context too you have things like for example 1993 a
33:32
lot of people think oh Oslo they think like said 1993 the Declaration princip principles the the shaking hands on the
33:38
White House lawn everyone's like well why hasn't this solved everything you know yasat and Yak Rin they shake hands
33:43
and everyone's like well there it is peace they I think they both won Nobel prizes everything's everything's figured out but that's really just one tiny
33:50
little part of it and even then yaser arat kind of did that on his own right and around well he had support from the
33:56
Palestinians right over overwhelming majority of Palestinians because they believed it would lead to a Palestinian State an an
34:03
occupation and an ENT settlement but if you look at what they agreed on right in Oslo and that was sealed on the White
34:09
House lawn the Palestinians the PLO recognized Israel the state of Israel
34:14
was recognized by the PLO the PLO previously had renounced violence so on the one hand you give up
34:22
your your your resort to violence and you give up your your reluctance to
34:27
recog recognize Israel Israel didn't recognize the right of the Palestinians to a state it never did that it said we
34:34
recognize that the the the PLO represents the Palestinian people and will'll negotiate with it what are you
34:40
negotiating for well as Rabin said in his last speech U before the knesset before he was murdered because in the
34:46
eyes of the right wing he'd gone too far and they killed him um as he said in his last speech uh what we're offering the
34:53
Palestinians is less than a state and we intend to maintain security control over over the Jordan River Valley therefore
34:59
over the envelope within which this so-called less than a state would operate so Israel to this day has never
35:07
recognized a fully independent Sovereign the right of the Palestinians to a fully independent sovereign state even other
35:13
Prime Ministers like Barak and who later on did negotiate never went beyond what
35:19
Rabin said we will keep security control and this will ultimately be less than state so it's not really a sovereign state it's like a a glorified Bantan M
35:27
and that that's the unequal the unequal nature of the Oslo Accords Israel is recognized by the
35:33
Palestinians who give up violence Israel doesn't renounce violence Israel doesn't end its occupation Israel doesn't
35:39
recognize the Palestinians have a right to self-determination in statehood and Israel doesn't stop eating up the the
35:46
disputed territory the occupied territory of the West Bank and East Jerusalem it continues to settle and and
35:52
and deprive the Palestinians of space for a putative Palestinian stay and you and you brought you brought up the B two
35:58
stands and this idea of carving up the area I want to get back to that but before we do uh I I wanted to just just
36:04
to wrap it up the the chapter begins in 1987 which has some significance because it's the first inapa right which is
36:10
basically uh you know obviously the Palestinians kind of coming together and kind of basically just kind of saying
36:16
you know this is enough and it becomes a protest movement in contrast to the second inapa which we'll get to it's
36:22
more it's more I don't want to say completely peaceful but more peaceful than the original one and that's kind of
36:27
this beginning of the the tide being turned towards people realizing that the Palestinians have a claim publicly and
36:34
internationally towards uh you know personhood nationhood all those types of things correct absolutely right yeah um
36:40
the first TI father is really important in a number of ways I mean I talk about it as one of the first real successes of
36:47
the Palestinian national movement because as you said I think it establishes palestin personhood in the eyes of much of the world um it was
36:55
largely nonviolent it wasn't nonviolent but it was largely it was mass-based it involved strikes and demonstrations and
37:01
boycotts and all kinds of quite Innovative Grassroots means of
37:07
protesting against a military occupation that had gone on for 20 years I think it's really important intifa means
37:13
Uprising Uprising against what Uprising against military occupation that's what it means uh it the term has been
37:20
distorted uh by people ill-intentioned poorly informed people
37:26
into some kind of claim that oh this is this is a call for genocide not inana
37:31
means rising up rising up against what is now 56 years of military occupation three generations have grown up under
37:38
the boo heel of Israeli Soldiers with no justice no rights all decisions that are
37:44
important are made by Israeli military and the Israeli military and the Israeli government and that's what people have
37:49
risen up against that's what resistance is against um and that is that's just
37:56
it's vital to understand understand that um you any military occupation generates resistance
38:04
generates a desire to to to throw off uh that the chains uh that military
38:10
occupation entails um and that was also the case with the second antifa which was much more violent right and the
38:16
second antifa is a comes as a result of those failed Oso uh negotiations and what resulted from that and I wanted to
38:23
just touch on that real quick you mentioned the banto stands part of the Oslo negotiations with Oso 2 uh there they carved up basically the
38:30
occupied territories to a b and cact Israel having control over C uh the
38:36
Palestinians having limited control over a and then they joint control over B is exactly yeah so it's basically literally
38:42
carved up into what would be kind of BTO stands reference to South Africa and then each of those areas is further
38:48
carved up um and this is where you get the second intifa because people are
38:54
very happy when in 1988 the poo adopts a program of recognition of Israel
39:00
recognition of the of the principle of partition uh renunciation of violence
39:06
and is its willingness to enter into negotiations the negotiations then start in 1991 in in Madrid and they're
39:13
continued throughout the decade of the 90s they're deliriously happy when Arafat signs this thing in 1993 now
39:20
there are many people oppose they said we should never have renounced violence we should never have recognized Israel
39:26
we should never have have abandoned our claim to the entirety of Palestine and these people end up in Hamas and other
39:32
rejectionist groups but the overwhelming majority is supportive at this point 19
39:38
early 1990s 1993 they support the PLO they support what Arafat has done but
39:44
then over the next s years as the Oslo Accords are implemented and further
39:50
negotiated they realize not only what you've said Which is far from getting an
39:55
ENT occupation and an ENT to settlement occupation is further entrenched and we are locked into these small areas with
40:02
Israeli checkpoints and walls and so so for and Gates and all that stuff but uh
40:08
we are much more restricted and actually much poorer at the end of this by the end of the 90s than we were in the early
40:15
'90s or before the first in Palestinian GDP per capita goes down Palestinian
40:20
movement is restricted and further restricted and further restricted you can't go from the West Bank to Gaza
40:25
anymore you can't go to into Israel anymore you can't go into Jerusalem anymore and Palestinians realize our
40:31
situation is considerably worse as a result of Oslo than it was under direct occupation and we supposedly have a
40:38
Palestinian Authority which has no sovereignty which has no jurisdiction and which has very little authority in
40:44
fact Israel is the ultimate Authority Under a much tighter regime of control
40:50
than had been the case before the first intifa so public opinion has soured and that's what one of the many reasons that
40:56
the second intifa is so violent and people people essentially all over the I
41:01
was living in Jerusalem for part of these years uh on and off from the early 90s uh on uh into the mid 90s and I
41:11
could see these things changing before my eyes I try and describe them in this chapter to understand what happens in
41:16
the 2000s you have to see how Palestinians feel that they've been completely snookered far from getting a
41:23
situ an improved situation they got a much worse situation and that's where get the second intifa the second intifa
41:28
leads to an Israeli Crackdown um which is devastating many Israelis are killed
41:34
by Palestinian violence many more Palestinians are killed by Israeli violence the ratio is like 3 or four to
41:40
one right uh of casualties um it's one of the largest civilian death tolls in
41:45
Israeli history and it's one of the largest Palestinian death tolls in Palestinian history um the the period of
41:51
the second in it's it's traumatic it's nothing compared to what we're seeing now in Gaza not nothing but it's not not
41:58
on the scale of what we're seeing in Gaza but um it changes everything and you you start with the I guess the
42:04
second and Def beginning in 2000 you go all the way to 2014 because then there are multiple operations by the IDF and
42:11
everything to kind of crack down with all these you know kind of ominous names and everything into them and those
42:16
mainly directed at Gaza right mainly directed at Gaza and those all happen in that same time period correct and then
42:21
end 2014 in your book um okay well that covers the chapters that you had in your
42:27
book I I just kind of wanted to to touch on some of the uh I guess I guess ideas and everything that you kind of bring up
42:33
um one I guess uh being that uh there there's this common I guess thread you
42:39
hear uh the counter being that the Israelis I'm sorry the the Palestinians reject it's the the term is rejectionism
42:46
right but they reject everything that that is kind of uh offered by Israel um
42:52
I think from from reading your book it seems that uh a lot of it has to do with what's being offered right which is
42:57
never really talked about the US and Israel comes to the table with an offer and it's rejected uh I I was wondering if you could talk a little bit on I mean
43:04
this goes back to the 30s and I could talk about the 1930s or the 1940s I've explained why Palestinians rejected the
43:11
partition plan there were a few who wanted to accept it King abdalah wanted the Palestinians to accept it because he
43:17
figured he'd get a big chunk of Palestine there would never be a Palestinian State uh there would be a Jordanian occupation which in fact there
43:24
was of a chunk of the area that was supposed to be part part of the Palestinian State um so i' I've given
43:30
some of the reasons for Palestinian rejection in the in the previous periods um Palestinians were never offered
43:35
anything until Oslo so it's not like they had anything to reject they didn't exist they were not recognized by the
43:42
United States until they jump through a bunch of Hoops um and those Hoops I think one can talk about the United
43:49
States said Palestinians have to renounce violence recognize Israel and accept two Security Council resolution
43:55
242 well Security Council resolution 2 I negates Palestinian rights it negates
44:00
the right of return it negates the right of statehood that the 47 partition plan established um it negates a variety of
44:08
other and it doesn't even mention the Palestinians we're supposed to accept a resolution drafted uh to to fit Israeli
44:15
deserada and and extremely unfavorable to us uh and to recognize Israel without
44:21
Israel reciprocally recognizing the Palestinian right of self-determination so what would they re reting they
44:27
rejecting an extremely unfavorable proposal when they went ahead and accepted 242 in 1998 and 1988 sorry when
44:36
they went ahead and renounced violence when they went ahead and recognized Israel when they went ahead and accepted
44:41
the principle of partition they still didn't get M an Israeli recognition or
44:47
an American recognition of the right to an end of to occupation an end to
44:52
settlement and colonization and acceptance of Palestinian self-determination state Ood and
44:57
sovereignty that's still not on the table right I mean if you look at what Israel and the United States talk about now I mean let's leave aside Israel if
45:04
you look at what the United States talk about talks about now up to the present they're not talking about full sovereignty I haven't heard an American
45:11
states person say end to occupation and to settlement withdraw the 34 of a million settlers who have uh uh
45:20
uh colonized the occupied territories that that's not there that language is never used well you don't have end to
45:27
the the partialization and bantus bantz of the occupied territories you don't
45:33
have statehood you're talking about something much less than sovereignty much less than self-determination so the
45:39
Palestinians are rejecting something that's extraordinarily unfavorable to them and is drafted by the Israelis and
45:44
their American friends to give Israel everything it wants and on that point it's interesting because the common the
45:50
common response would be it's for security reasons you think of like the famous golden mayir uh quote where it's
45:56
like if the Arabs put down their their weapons we we won't have violence if the Israel put down their weapons we won't
46:01
have Israel uh I I think that's a common thing and and I was wondering if you could speak on that idea I mean if Golda
46:08
was good at anything she was good at PR she was brilliant I mean I heard once heard her speak When I Was An
46:13
undergraduate um she too but too she also mentioned the fact that that Palestinians don't
46:19
exist the whole point that that's the whole point there is no acceptance by Israel of Palestinian of of of of
46:27
Palestinian peoplehood as equal to Israeli peoplehood in fact Israeli law
46:33
laws with constitutional Force say quite the opposite only the Jewish people have the right of
46:39
self-determination in Israel or in the land of Israel well when you say that you're saying there is no Palestinian
46:44
people or at least they don't have the rights of self the right of self-determination that a people would enjoy under the UN Charter so what is on
46:53
offer is is essentially accepting your status as a accepting your status as a
46:59
as a as subordinate to MH uh uh uh the Israeli to Israel um and I I think that
47:06
I think that all of these beautiful PR phrases that the Israelis use have to be
47:12
deconstructed I mean what generous offer was Barack making Jerusalem East Jerusalem as a capital of
47:20
a Palestinian state it should be a natural obvious uh part of a deal Israel
47:26
is not willing to accept that neither Barak and I mean we're talking about the Israeli leaders RAB Barak and later om
47:34
who were the most forthcoming none of them none of them uh put on the table or
47:39
accepted some of the basics for Independence sovereignty and self-determination for the Palestinians so what are the Palestinians being
47:46
rejectionist about they're being they're rejecting their subordination to second class status they're rejecting
47:52
continuation of occupation if you say we're going to maintain security control it means you're still under occupation
47:58
right you we'll control your population registry we'll control your entry and exit we'll control your imports and
48:03
exports we'll control your currency which is the current situation uh in into it unto eternity and that's
48:10
basically what's more or less what's been on offer now this issue of security
48:15
if you hold a people down they will with your boot heel they will bite your ankle
48:21
now removing the boot heel is not going to lead to love and understanding and peace there has to be a process to get
48:27
away from occupation to get away from colonization you have to decolonize and
48:33
that requires changes among Israelis of which there's no sign whatsoever except among a minority of Israelis um and and
48:41
that's where you're going to finally get security not by saying we will hold you down until you say uncle and do exactly
48:47
as we please which is what Israel basically says their insecurity is created by their security mhm or their
48:55
their their drive for ultim security which means holding the Palestinians under this awful 56y year military
49:02
occupation right or keeping Palestinians whose ancestors left from ever returning
49:07
to their Homeland right and it's interesting you bring that up because I I think a lot of times when there is
49:12
obviously more conflict and violence and things you you start hearing people talk of well what what what should we do uh
49:19
or they talk about how impossible would be for a two-state solution in these moments and things like that when it's
49:24
almost it's almost like it's almost counterproductive to even mentioned something like a two-state solution in moments like this because it is
49:29
difficult to do but that doesn't mean that other steps couldn't be taken towards decolonization to eventually get
49:35
to a point where you can discuss longer term Solutions like that when when right now the longer term Solutions aren't
49:41
what's on the table anyway um and conization is in things like you know stopping a bombing stopping different
49:48
things and then getting to another point but it's almost like a red herring in a way sometimes moments like this I mean
49:54
as I as I try and say in the book the important thing in my view is not what
50:00
form the final resolution of this takes whether one state or two states or
50:07
bational state or or cantons or Confederation to my way of thinking
50:14
that's not the important thing the important thing is the establishment of a principle of absolute equality that everybody has the same
50:21
rights now there's an Israeli people many Palestinians don't recognize that by the way right there's a Palestinian
50:27
people it's not just Israelis don't recognize Israeli law Israeli Constitution says there's no Palestinian
50:34
people so excuse me the Palestinians have actually recognized Israel the PLO recognized Israel that's done are do
50:41
many Palestinians not recognize it maybe but leave aside whatever Israelis think their knesset has in 2018 passed into
50:49
law a what is it a law with constitutional Force which basically says the Palestinians don't exist and
50:55
have no rights in this country basic law of exactly basic law Israel
51:00
nation state of the Jewish people je people sorry 2018 M um you got to dismantle those kinds of things before
51:07
you can even talk about anything right talk about one state two states it doesn't matter what you talk about you
51:12
have to have equality you have to have M Mutual recognition right and I I am i'
51:18
would be the first one to admit that 75 years of dispossession and 56 years of
51:23
military occupation of ethnic cleansing of massacres uh the slaughter that's going on in Gaza has probably led
51:31
Palestinians to be unfavorable towards Israel I'm the first one to admit that and I would also accept that Israelis
51:38
have a negative view of Palestinians because a lot of Israelis have been killed many many many many many fewer
51:44
than Palestinians but many Israelis I mean the Israeli death toll on the 8th 9th and 10th of October was the largest
51:51
Israeli civilian death toll since 1948 it it was it was it was it was a a
51:58
traumatic shock to Israel um so I I'd be the first one to accept not only that
52:04
Palestinians have reasons to have grievances but that also Israelis do but these structural things M like the
52:13
nation state law like the rank discrimination against Palestinian citizens of Israel since the state was
52:18
create created the dozens of laws that discriminated against Palestinians inside Israel Palestinian citizens of
52:24
the state the way the municipalities are treated way access to all kind of things land
52:32
and so they have voting rights yes of course but they don't have equal rights all of these structural things have to
52:39
be looked at before you can even talk about a settlement and any lasting
52:44
resolution has to be based on these principles of equal nobody seems to want to address those things nor Israelis nor
52:51
all of Israel's powerful supporters in the Western countries and on that point you you talk we talked about this kind
52:56
of earlier but uh you mentioned the the circumstances under which Israel was uh was created and the trauma that came
53:04
from you know the Holocaust is one of the one of the big drivers of the early right booms and immigration what if you
53:10
you believe that that has an effect for example Gabor mate has been talking a lot recently on this trauma of the
53:15
actual you know generational trauma Collective trauma of a people and how they respond to things like you know the
53:23
conflicts with the Palestinians and all do you do you think that that is also a part of policy and different reactions
53:28
over the past few Generations in Israel versus against I mean there's no question um
53:34
that historical trauma um of the Jewish people uh going
53:41
back even before the Holocaust and the way it's embedded in Jewish religious tradition I mean the
53:47
destruction of the temple things like that are still Revisited annually in Jewish religious ritual so these are
53:54
things that that are our embedded trauma if you want um I mean the most obviously
54:00
the most Salient is the Holocaust but there's a lot of other things I mean and people talking about this obsessively in
54:07
Israel um the mo the most the largest number of of Jews killed since the
54:12
Holocaust um Kish Pam is is evoked again and again and again the 1905 Pam in
54:19
which dozens and dozens of innocent Jewish residents of kishia were murdered
54:25
and people were raped and homes were looted and burned and so on clearly those traumas historical traumas almost
54:33
all of which have to do with Christian Europe's treatment of the Jews over Millennia not even centuries Millennia
54:39
you know the Jews are expelled from England the Jews are expelled from France the Jews are expelled from Spain the Jews are expelled from Portugal
54:46
we're talking over hundreds of years in the medieval period um these are traumatic events that you know anybody
54:53
with any sense of Jewish Heritage um is alive to and the the the the the
54:59
culmination obviously is the Holocaust so to to deny that these are important
55:04
um drivers of the way in which the first Zionist settlers and right up to the
55:11
present Israeli population see things would be foolish obviously these things are there it should be noted most of
55:17
this is the result of the treatment of Jews by Christian Europe where there difficult relations between Jews and Muslims yes throughout history not much
55:24
in Palestine in fact almost none in Palestine but yes but nothing like Christian Europe I mean where were Jews
55:30
expelled from entire countries right in the AR world before 1948 before Zionism
55:36
before the establishment of a Jewish State at the expense of Arabs that created all kinds of backlash and
55:42
horrible results for Jewish communities in the Arab world but before Zionism you don't have the same kind of Jew hatred
55:49
which is the core of anti-Semitism that is a feature of Christian doctrine up
55:54
until the second Vatican Council the Jews as a people are responsible for the killing of Jesus that's the doctrine of
56:00
the Catholic church until Vatican 2 we're talking about in the 60s um there's nothing like that is there
56:06
anti-Semitism in the Muslim world of course there is was there is there yes has it been accentuated by the conflict
56:12
of course it has but what most of the trauma that we're talking about is a
56:18
result of the persecution of Jews in Europe up to and including the Holocaust
56:23
um and that's unfortunately been transferred or into uh uh motivation uh
56:30
for Israelis seeing the Palestinians as only the latest tormentors of the Jewish
56:35
people with the Palestinians if the if the if the settlers had been Danes Danes people from Denmark had come
56:43
with a national and a settler Colonial project and had tried to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians the
56:48
Palestinians would have resisted and they would have their their opposition to the DS would not have been
56:54
anti-christian right it would have been against occupation and and settlement and colonization and that's what's
57:01
driving the Palestinians but it is coded it is read by Israelis as these are the latest in a long line of people who just
57:07
hate us because we're Jews no the problem is what you're doing to the indigenous population right the problem
57:13
is you're substituting yourself for a people that was already there the problem is how you treat that people
57:18
that's the problem right and the the the ability of a construct of reality to
57:25
elide ignore obliterate those basic core facts the real drivers of this struggle
57:34
is a is a work of public relations genius you know every one of these little gems of ABA Ian and the gold
57:42
Mayer the Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity are are PR genius I have to say it because
57:51
they managed to completely obscure what's actually going on on the ground which is a people being replaced by
57:58
another people um as jabotinsky said the transformation of Palestine into the
58:03
land of Israel that is what was intended and that is what has happened or what is meant to happen and so I I think that I
58:12
I think that this is this is beginning to be chipped away M I think we're beginning to see a turning in the way in
58:18
which people see Israel Israel's Behavior the absolute mendacity of its spokespeople I mean everybody can see
58:25
that they're lying Liars lying right it's just it's it's hard not to see that
58:31
now unless you're a died in the will supporter of Israel who doesn't believe anything anybody else says and will believe whatever the Israeli
58:37
spokespersons and politicians say is Gospel truth in other words if you have a brain in your head and you're looking at social media and you're watching
58:43
what's happening you're listening to what they say is happening you can tell there's a disconnect this is not true
58:48
this is what's happening and that's what's beginning to happen right and then the only thing you'll hear in in
58:54
the other in response is you know point fingers at let's say Hamas or political groups which kind of miss the bigger
59:00
picture not to say Obviously what Hamas did was terrible and what what's happened was was terrible but it misses
59:05
the bigger picture of everything we've talked about that doesn't have to do with the culprits of a horrible where
59:11
does Hamas come from right what is Hamas a response to it's a response to many things but it
59:17
has a history goes back to 1987 if you don't understand its history if you don't understand where this rejectionism
59:23
comes from if you don't understand the not just the religious but mainly the political drivers behind it and how what
59:31
Israel has done has in fact reinforced right the rejectionist and the militant
59:37
elements in Palestinian politics you understand nothing right um the Israeli
59:43
body politic is perfectly aware of the fact that the Netanyahu government and
59:48
some other Israeli governments over the last few years have in effect encouraged the divisions in Palestinian
59:55
policy politics and in effect reinforced hamas's control over the Gaza Strip as a
1:00:01
means of avoiding a unified Palestinian national movement that could demand a Palestinian State netanyahu's said that explicitly
1:00:09
again and again and again so it's not like a secret and Israelis have CAU to the fact that that helped to create the situation that produced October 7th if
1:00:17
you're allowing the Claris to bring in suitcases of cash to support the Hamas regime with your knowledge and
1:00:23
understanding and agreement then clearly you have a false understanding of what
1:00:28
Hamas is right um and if you don't understand that there's this whole set
1:00:34
of Palestinian grievances the the population of the Gaza Strip are not the original natives of the city of Gaza or
1:00:40
the city of Kanan Yunis or the city of Raa 75 80% of them are people driven into that area by Israel in 1948 as part
1:00:48
of the ethnic cleansing of the Southern parts of what is now Israel that's the problem that's the core of the problem
1:00:53
it's not Hamas or not Hamas that's a result of the problem it's not to say that Hamas is right or wrong and that's
1:01:00
not the issue you've got to understand where they come from you've got to understand that this this tendency this
1:01:06
militant tendency was in fact encouraged at different phases by your government I mean the stories about the establishment
1:01:13
of Hamas in the late 1980s are by Israelis not just by Palestinians
1:01:19
whereby it was clear that Israeli intelligence was happy to see arrival to the PLO the PLO was seen as the main
1:01:26
enemy of Israel and anything that weakened the the PLO or the divided Palestinian ranks same policy that
1:01:32
Netanyahu has followed more recently was seen as a good thing and so you had car
1:01:37
loads busloads of thugs of the islamia the Islamic grouping which later became
1:01:44
Hamas trucked bust across Israel to beat up PLO supporters in the West Bank
1:01:49
universities in the 80s and in the late 70s um you had a you had a support of
1:01:56
Islamic tendency in Gaza as a means of weakening the Palestinians dividing the Palestinians and that continued even
1:02:01
after Hamas is founded in 1987 well let's keep them divided eventually Israelis Israeli intelligence folks came
1:02:08
to realize this may not be such a good idea but at the outset there's a huge amount of evidence by Israelis I mean
1:02:16
couple books by Israeli analysts who talk about this in detail um and so I I
1:02:22
don't think you can ignore all of that I don't think you can ignore the fact that um by weakening the PLO by never
1:02:28
negotiating in my view in good faith with the PLO by never implementing even the miserable faulty agreements that
1:02:36
were made with the PLO Israel in effect encouraged rejectionism encouraged militancy and I think that's an
1:02:43
important point that the violence that's happening is the symptom of a bigger issue which is a political issue exact
1:02:48
and so a solution isn't going to be a violent Sol it's going to be a political solution um if there is to be one solve
1:02:54
the political issue I mean I just to speak to this I I think there's a belief
1:03:00
certainly among Israelis that force and only force is the resolution is the solution to this there such a belief
1:03:06
exists among some Palestinians too by the way um I think that's a delusion and a snare and and and and a dangerous
1:03:13
falsehood uh the difference of course is that the overwhelming weight of force is on the Israeli side but what Hamas
1:03:20
showed is that it has an amazing resilience and capability sometimes exercised in
1:03:27
horrific ways and that you know force is not going to be sufficient um no matter
1:03:34
how overwhelming overwhelmingly Superior Israel is and force is not going to be sufficient no matter how many allies
1:03:40
Hamas may think it has um so I I mean I
1:03:45
argue in the book um uh for different aspects of what should be
1:03:52
Palestinian strategy um and I I I don't really think that uh in
1:04:00
particular Israel has understood what you just said that sooner or later you have to have some kind of political
1:04:05
Vision that accepts that there are two peoples in this country how that is
1:04:11
worked out I don't know we're not very close to it so in a sense it doesn't really matter um but you have to accept
1:04:18
that the Palestinians have peoplehood and have exactly the same National rights as any other people and that all
1:04:23
kinds of things follow from that you can't say because of our security we have to make you insecure no you can't
1:04:29
say because of our our natural inherent god-given whatever
1:04:34
rights we will infringe on your rights and we will have this and you can't have that when you say equality it has to be
1:04:40
equality of political rights National rights it has to be equality of civil rights and political rights it has to be
1:04:45
equality of religious rights you can't say we will take over uh this mosque because it once belonged to us or
1:04:52
because it has the you can't do those things there has to be a certain resp respect um both of Jewish and Christian
1:04:59
and Muslim religious rights which is simply not the case today right uh and that's just one of a whole Litany of
1:05:06
ways in which rights are being infringed and that's you have to change all of that yeah and it's uh there's actually
1:05:11
I'm sure you're familiar with Mahmud mamdani's work on and and his him talking about separating the nation from
1:05:17
the state right in a way and and I think he he uses a comparison to South Africa and how the only re the only way they
1:05:23
got any success was because everyone came to the and they separated this idea of the white Nation being the driver and
1:05:30
the owner of the state and allowing other people in um yeah but I guess that
1:05:35
uh that's a whole another thing I guess get into well I I think South Africa and actually Ireland Ireland yeah are two
1:05:42
cases of settler colonialism where we may see some basis
1:05:48
for moving towards a resolution uh which is a Pacific one which is a one involving
1:05:56
acceptance um I don't know that we're there in either case in fact I don't think we're there in either case and
1:06:02
there's a hard Road a ho ahead of them the Irish and the and the South Africans
1:06:09
but and they they entail there every settler Colonial project is different
1:06:14
Zionism is completely different than every other one um in the case of Palestine is different for multiple
1:06:19
reasons I mean Ireland's a very important place and South Africa is a very important place but it's not the center of devotion for three Global
1:06:26
monotheisms um it's not neither of them is they're both extremely strategically important but they're not as
1:06:32
strategically important as Palestine historically um so it's harder it's a
1:06:37
harder case Palestine and Israel obviously but I think that looking at
1:06:42
those kinds of ways in which settler Colonial uh uh
1:06:49
situations uh were if not resolved moved towards resolution might help us think
1:06:54
you know more creative in terms of Palestine and Israel okay I guess we should wrap it up you're busy
1:07:00
you're busy guy thank you for having us up here I I I wanted to commend you on I guess the book and and also its its
1:07:05
personal history which I thought was great uh I guess I think that really helped kind of uh make it make it more
1:07:11
um digestible and and captivating uh is there is there something that kind of drove you to to yeah well I the the the
1:07:18
main I mean I got enormous help from my editor from my agent in making the book
1:07:24
more relatable and and and in pushing me to to to bring in personal stuff so that
1:07:29
people could understand how what I was talking about historically affected people but the main person who did that
1:07:35
was really my son who was a playwright and said you know enough already writing books for other boring books for other
1:07:41
historians write something that you know normal people can read and uh he he he
1:07:46
pushed me very very hard my I have to say my editor also she was wonderful and pushing me in that direction so was my
1:07:52
agent they they helped the shape this the form the book takes where every chapter begins with something personal
1:07:58
and and all of it as much as I could incorporates you know family material
1:08:03
material that that is about people uh rather than you know dry diplomatic or
1:08:09
strategic you know history oh that's nice your son your son giving you Guff has help helped shape it huh that's a
1:08:15
good after my wife he's my harshest critic there you go all you kids out there giving your parents Guff it's not
1:08:20
for nothing huh perfect living proof here um well one more thing I guess just to kind of end or try to ended I guess
1:08:26
on a more on a positive note I guess what what gives you hope I guess obviously everything is terrible there's been tragedy on both
1:08:34
sides in the last six months has been a what in all of this has given you hope uh with what's happening I guess I mean
1:08:40
look it's very hard to be hopeful sure towards the end of a six month of this
1:08:47
atrocious war on Gaza MH um more Palestinians have been killed in this war the number is close to 33,000
1:08:56
dead and 7 or 8,000 missing undoubtedly dead we're talking 40,000 people killed
1:09:01
60 70,000 people wounded it's the worst atrocity in Palestinian
1:09:07
history matching the level of 1948 um 2 million people almost have
1:09:13
been displaced 750,000 were displaced in 19407 48 49 so it's really hard to talk
1:09:21
about something hopeful if I see anything hopeful in this
1:09:26
it's that I think people the world over especially younger people are for
1:09:32
the first time being being forced to look in real time at atrocities taking
1:09:40
place and are able to come to their own conclusions about this
1:09:45
war and are able to get past the media
1:09:52
and political censorship that is essentially cre created a barrier of lies and disinformation around
1:09:58
Palestine um and you see this all over the world and I just not just talking about demonstrations I'm talking about
1:10:05
the the the the the percentages of people who vote uncommitted or non-committed or whatever in primary
1:10:11
elections I'm talking about dozens and dozens of American politicians saying things that no American politician has
1:10:16
ever said before I'm talking about governments all over the world beginning
1:10:22
to change their policies to my way of thinking that's a reason for hope it doesn't bring back
1:10:28
the 30 uh thousand 40,000 Palestinians who are dead and the thousands of others who were starving to death and may die
1:10:35
probably many of them will die the way things are going it won't bring them back to life uh it may not change the
1:10:42
situation on the ground or the political Horizon for Palestinians for a little
1:10:47
while but sooner or later those factors have to come into into into
1:10:52
play from the beginning this war was one involving the world
1:11:00
involving the great Powers if they are affected this war will be affected if
1:11:06
they begin to change their approach then there are possibilities for change among Palestinians and Israelis if they don't
1:11:14
we will continue to see this war waged on Palestine with Mo many Israelis killed but many many many many many more
1:11:21
Palestinians killed MH and enmity anger and Regal instability caused as has been
1:11:27
happening since the 1930s mhm Regional instability has been created by this war mhm and it is we can see it today Yemen
1:11:36
right uh Syria uh Lebanon uh Iraq uh each of them have their own issues but
1:11:41
they are they're being drawn into a larger Iran being drawn into a larger conflict
1:11:48
um I I'm not hopeful that things will change quickly but I think that these
1:11:55
Transformations especially among young people sooner or later are going to have to have an effect and that gives me a
1:12:01
long range Reason for Hope yeah and just to piggyback on that I think one of the things that I've noticed is people are
1:12:07
are the atrocities are taking place it's been really horrible and hard to watch but people are being forced to have
1:12:13
conversations are being forced to go around the C the the conventional media narrative and and do the research and
1:12:20
have the conversation with people listen look for more voices and I think that to me at least gives me some hope uh you
1:12:27
know through it all and even this right here this is I mean even this and putting this these kinds of voices out
1:12:32
and having these kinds of conversations more often in public as well uh so that's that's what gives me hope but it
1:12:38
is hard and I've taken so much of your time I already feel bad uh but yeah thank you so much would you mind signing
1:12:43
my book not at all this would be this is a big uh this is a huge you know I'm getting kind of Star Struck here so you
1:12:48
get sign the front of my book and and uh this is uh this is you know jeanpier
1:12:54
meetting Elvis oh I wrote down to different people I wanted to that you mentioned I see sorry yeah so so yeah
1:13:00
two it's a good old Tom I guess that's just that's me so I'm just that'd be good yeah pretty cool but I want to
1:13:07
thank you again uh Professor uh khi this was this was really helpful and uh you know I hope I hope you guys enjoyed it
1:13:13
and uh you know I got my signed book and I'll be on my way and let you get your work done thank you very much I'll take
1:13:19
that pen and thank you thanks again not at all thank you for doing this I really appreciate all right
