"Dear Viewers!
Since the recording of this episode, a significant development has happened. The UN Security Council has called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza. The United States, after frustrating previous attempts by the world body, did not veto the measure, which is a shift from its previous position. The resolution has demanded the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages.
Importantly, the move by the US signals growing divergence between Washington and Israel over latter’s offensive in Gaza, especially Rafah, the southernmost town in the strip which now houses over 1 million internally-displaced Gazans.
The US move has prompted a statement from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office: "Regrettably, the United States did not veto the new resolution" and in doing so has abandoned its previous position.
Netanyahu’s office has also decided to cancel meetings between an Israeli delegation and US officials in Washington that were scheduled for this week.
Israel's defence minister who was in Washington to request expedited weapons deliveries has said Israel would not stop the war in Gaza while hostages were still being held there." Ejaz Haider
Watch part 1 of this conversation here: • InFocus with Ejaz Haider-Ep31,Mar 26:...
Guest: Joseph Massad is Professor of Modern Arab Politics and Intellectual History at Columbia University. He is the author of several books, dozens of scholarly articles, and hundreds of op-eds. His books include Colonial Effects: The Making of National Identity in Jordan, The Persistence of the Palestinian Question, Desiring Arabs, and Islam in Liberalism. His forthcoming book is tentatively titled The Age of Independence: A Settler-Colonial History of the World. He is a recipient of a number of research and teaching Awards, including the Lionel Trilling Book Award for his book Desiring Arabs, The Scott Nearing Award for Courageous Scholarship, and The Columbia University Faculty Mentoring Award, His works have been translated to more than a dozen languages including Arabic, Turkish, Persian, French, Italian, Spanish, Dutch, Swedish, Japanese, Chinese, German, and Indonesian.
Transcript
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welcome to INF focus with Az he this program comes to you from the center for security strategy and policy research
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sespa is an autonomous Research Center housed in the University of lore and tackles issues that impact contemporary
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security and strategic developments and this program is part of that effort now this episode is the second part of our
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program on the Palestinian question and since the 7th October attack on Israel
0:24
by Hamas and the Palestinian Jihad Fighters Israel has devastated Gaza from the are and through ground assaults
0:32
where is the situation headed what are the possible outcomes and what role if any the Arab and the Muslim world can
0:39
play to mitigate the tragedy that is unfolding in Gaza and also the occupied
0:44
Palestinian territories with me is Professor Joseph masad a professor of modern Arab politics and intellectual
0:50
history at Colombia and a regular contributor to Mid try if you missed the first episode you will find the link
0:58
below this one Jose thank you now we we talked about ancient and medieval and
1:05
you know the history and of course also the run up to uh the formation of the of
1:11
Israel uh land stolen from the Palestinians now as you and I speak
1:17
things are obviously uh grave I think even that is a mild word for what's happening in Gaza
1:26
uh which is uh nothing less than genocide as I mentioned uh in the previous episode also even the
1:32
international court of justice has put Israel on notice uh regarding that now
1:39
uh this program is being recorded as Anthony blinken he's on his sixth uh
1:44
tour off the Middle East the Americans finally are coming around to actually
1:50
presenting uh which will be voted uh later today uh Friday uh afternoon uh
1:57
Eastern uh time in in in the United States where do you think the things are
2:04
headed uh Hamas has given its own blueprint to uh to the Israelis naanyu
2:11
uh seems to go against everyone including uh Joseph Joe Biden uh who is
2:20
now finally coming around to uh looking at the situation slightly differently
2:26
from the time when he thought that the the not be any daylight between Israel
2:31
and the United States so what is your assessment of where it's going um well I mean the United States
2:39
as the major uh uh sort of party to this war and to this genocide a supporter of
2:45
this war and of this genocide um uh active participant in arming Israel in
2:51
providing it with intelligence and even in having possibly uh uh soldiers and Consultants on the ground from different
2:58
kinds of reports that we've heard over the last few months uh uh you know is continues to be involved in inflicting
3:05
this genocide on the Palestinian people um indeed secretary blinkin has had the
3:10
audacity in the last few days to uh inform the qataris that their role for
3:18
which they had been uh uh prescribed by the Americans as mediators between Hamas
3:25
the Americans and Israel uh is one that may be ending and that unless Hamas
3:31
submits to America's Imperial and genocidal terms that the qataris should
3:37
expel Hamas leaders uh from Qatar according to reports that I've read this morning um uh you know basically uh uh
3:48
some American officials claiming that this is blink's recent uh letter I mean
3:53
remember blinkin has been as much of a fabricator and a liar about what has happened since October 7th as Joe Biden
4:01
and the Israelis it was of course Joe Biden and uh blinken who uh gave uh uh
4:09
statements claiming that they had seen uh or have incontrovertible evidence
4:14
that allegedly the Palestinian resistance Fighters had killed babies which of course now has been debunked as
4:21
nothing short of gruesome propaganda by the Israelis um amongst others um so uh
4:27
these are you know uh uh uh the Americans U I don't think have
4:33
come around on the contrary uh Biden and blinkin have now responded to the
4:39
earliest uh uh proposition by Netanyahu of continuing the closure of uh the
4:46
Egyptian border with Gaza and opening up the Seas through the Americans
4:51
presumably under the pretext of uh uh sending Provisions to the starving
4:57
Palestinian population who are being starved as a a strategy of War by the
5:03
Israelis it's a deliberate starvation campaign although secretary blinkin claims that they have not yet seen proof
5:10
that the Israelis are using famine as a weapon of War which of course everyone H
5:15
sees as the existing situation but the idea of this uh uh uh sort of uh
5:23
attempting to have some kind of a a c entry point uh to Palestine is to
5:31
actually facilitate the possible expulsion of the Palestinians from Gaza
5:36
since Egypt is refusing to take them in the idea is that they can be expelled through this new sea route that uh Biden
5:44
has opened up pretending it's his idea when it was in fact netanyahu's idea and of course Gaza has an Old Port that has
5:51
been there even though uh the Israelis had closed it down that could have been used let's say as a point of entry but
5:57
no the Israelis insisted and the Americans of course satisfied them by
6:03
opening this particular sea route um uh connecting the middle of Gaza where the
6:09
Israelis have just opened a new sort of highway to divide North and South Gaza
6:14
so that the the Israelis would be in charge presumably of Distributing
6:21
Provisions as you might know the israelies uh in the last uh few days
6:26
have targeted and assassinated uh the police uh officer in
6:32
charge of the distribution of food which had gone to Northern Gaza um they killed
6:37
him for his uh uh coordination of this distribution efforts and they killed a
6:43
couple of dozen more than a two dozen uh Aid workers who were involved in the distribution of food so uh the continued
6:50
starvation of the population the continued genocidal bombing that has killed upwards of 31,000 people injured
6:58
upwards of 70,000 people thousands more are dead under the rubble we don't know the real number of the Palestinians who
7:05
have been killed all of that continues to be part of netanyahu's strategy and
7:11
the only thing that the Americans are upset about is that he seems not to have good PR he's embarrassing them by not
7:18
covering up Israel's crimes better and by yeah and by fabricating lies that
7:26
have been in fact exposed as lies even by the exceedingly obsequious mainstream
7:33
American and European press whose racism against Palestinians whose support of
7:39
the arguments for the genocide of the Palestinians continue
7:44
unhindered nathany possibly could not have covered up all this because of a
7:51
number of very brave uh GMS who have been relaying to the world every ATR
8:00
and then of course there are the razen reporters for Al jazer and whether
8:07
Arabic or English who have been uh essentially I mean they've been putting
8:13
their uh lives online to uh relay to the world exactly what is happening so nathu
8:21
even if he wanted to could not have covered this up but uh before we proceed further I just want to touch upon what
8:27
you said with reference to the Hama attack now in the initial uh months of
8:34
the this this war even the pal Palestinians living in
8:43
the west or uh westerns who are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause
8:51
would be brought on these channels and various YouTube programs
8:58
and the first question that would be thrown at them would be do you condemn
9:05
the terrorist attack by Hamas the Hamas atrocities now you're right much of that
9:12
propaganda has been debunked uh electronic in the has been very among
9:17
other outlet has been very uh very you know Keen they've done investigation
9:23
that they debunked it we now know that New York Times uh has a lot of egg on
9:30
its face even though it still hasn't really uh gone and actually begun to start
9:39
reporting uh the events as they should be reported but how does one counter this I
9:46
I want to ask you this I mean how do you look at the and I want your opinion how
9:52
do you look at the Hamas attack would you consider what Hamas did as before
9:58
you begin to to accuse Israel of these uh atrocities Would You Begin by saying
10:05
that what Hamas did was atrocious uh first of all I think I I
10:11
consider what Hamas uh what happened on October 7th was a prison break right
10:16
people were living in a concentration camp controlled by Israel since uh uh
10:21
you know I mean since the occupation in 1967 but also since uh uh
10:27
2006 ENT uh when Gaza has been blockaded by the
10:33
Israelis and where the the Palestinians of Gaza have been living in an an open
10:38
air prison a veritable concentration camp so this was a you know people
10:44
breaking out of this concentration camp and uh our understanding is that of course which is uh legitimate under
10:52
international law the Palestinian people have the right to uh defend themselves and to struggle to end uh an illegal
11:01
occupation they have the right to Armed struggle according to the United Nations and international law so um I believe
11:08
the attack of course that targeted the military bases and checkpoints around Gaza uh was absolutely uh uh legitimate
11:16
as far as international law uh is concerned this was an act of resistance for National Liberation now um where
11:24
some atrocities committed against civilians uh clearly a large number of civilians have been killed we do not
11:30
know the circumstances of uh uh the death of the majority of those people we
11:35
have what we do have confirmed is that many have been killed by Israeli Friendly Fire uh it is unclear if uh uh
11:45
you if uh the these civilians were targeted deliberately by Hamas I mean
11:51
clearly some civilians were targeted to be taken as hostages as Were Soldiers uh
11:57
to exchange uh uh the LA large number of Palestinian abductees that uh uh lay in
12:03
Israel's dungeons uh but we have I have seen no evidence no unsalable evidence
12:10
that Hamas had a sort of a deliberate uh
12:15
campaign of mass killing of civilians um and and given the large number of
12:21
Israeli propaganda from the Ali allegations of rape which uh to date have not produced a single victim uh of
12:29
Survivor of rape uh uh to testify uh to any commission including the United
12:35
Nations the baked babies the alleged disembowelment of uh uh pregnant women
12:42
all of which have been exposed as gruesome lies and fabrications by the Israelis and of course the latest lie of
12:49
accusing workers of the United Nations relief and works agency Ona as being
12:54
Hamas members which has also been debunked as yet another line
13:00
now uh you know once there is an actual investigation to see how many of these
13:06
Israel civilians had died uh then we can assess what kinds of uh at who's
13:12
responsible for these atrocities uh directly um uh at this stage of course I
13:19
mean the idea to speak about what happened on October 7th is uh to pretend
13:24
that everything before October 7th didn't exist we are speaking about a settler Colonial move movement that has
13:30
begun to take over Palestine since the 1880s um and has targeted the
13:35
Palestinian people and their lands a large theft of Palestinian land
13:40
especially after 1948 and after 1967 a huge attrocities committed uh from the
13:47
1930s onwards in 1948 alone the Zionist uh sort of militias killed upwards of
13:54
13,000 Palestinians 11,000 of whom were civilians um by before Gaza before
14:01
October 7th you had upwards of 100,000 Palestinians and other Arabs who had
14:07
been killed by the Zionist settlers uh since Zionism had begun so to begin to
14:13
speak about October 7th as some kind of a strange uh uh occurrence uh is an
14:19
attempt to cheat uh your audience of the actual historical background of what happened um also of course uh uh what is
14:27
always interesting and as I've written about in my recent oped that all Israeli
14:33
attacks in the west are depicted as retaliatory uh but of course as if the
14:39
Palestinian resistance uh offensive of October 7th was not a retaliation
14:45
against the ongoing Siege occupation and brutalization of the Palestinian people
14:50
in Gaza of course I see all Palestinian resistance as in retaliation for Zionist
14:56
settler colonialism uh now I of course of course uh uh May uh criticize uh uh
15:02
you know all kinds of methods of this resistance but it does not make it any
15:08
less uh retaliatory or any less of a resistance operation and again but with
15:14
regards to the events of October 7th I I cannot speak to what was uh uh uh
15:20
committed against Israeli civilians given the huge uh sort of mountain of
15:27
lies that the Israel have put out there and had been exposed since October 7th
15:33
we need to have an independent investigation that the Israelis refused to allow an international investigation
15:39
to find out how civilians uh were killed especially as many people out there
15:46
believe and there's some evidence to support that uh that uh perhaps the uh
15:51
majority of Israeli civilians might have been killed by indiscriminate Israeli bombings by friendly fire that targeted
15:58
ham but could Hamas Fighters or Palestinians but could not distinguish between Israeli civilians and the Hamas
16:06
Fighters so uh I'm not able to uh render judgment on this except of course to say
16:12
it was a tragic loss of life uh um but we need to know the conditions under
16:18
which this happened before we can render judgment absolutely in fact in the
16:23
earlier phases of the war if I remember correctly within about three three weeks of that har said a report quoting
16:30
sources from the Israeli police talking about the fact that one of the you know that famous Rave where lots of civilians
16:38
got killed that many of them got killed because there was an Israeli helicopter gunship that started firing at the at
16:46
the at the Palestinian Fighters and in that process also ended up killing a lot
16:51
of Israelis apart from that uh we also know that uh Israel has the hanb
16:59
Hannibal protocol uh which dictates that they are
17:05
going yeah so they they're not going to allow anyone to take an Israeli hostage
17:10
and uh if that means the hostage also gets killed so be it and you know I mean
17:18
Al jaaz did an entire documentary on that uh plus they have and you
17:24
know this this Dia Doctrine which which was developed by gadii esen who's part
17:31
of the war cabinet uh which is about indiscriminate bombing of Civilian areas
17:38
which is exactly what they've been doing in Gaza but Joseph Where Do We Go From Here
17:45
uh if if you know Nathan yahu has made it clear that he's not going to stop he
17:52
already got the plans for a ground assault on Rafa um and there as I said
17:59
they they've already started bombing uh parts of uh Rafa and uh he he has basically cocked a
18:06
snook at Joe Biden saying well you know you might want me to do something else
18:12
but I'm going to do what I think I have to do and leaving aside the war cabinet
18:19
he also knows that his real strength is the the pre-war cabinet which is
18:25
populated by the right Wingers I mean I mean remember today um uh the
18:32
differences between Netanyahu and his antagonists in the Israeli government or on the Israeli political scene or
18:39
between Netanyahu and the American government is not about the ongoing genocide of the Palestinians is not
18:45
about the conquest of Gaza and the destruction of Palestinian resistance but about what is the most effective
18:51
method to do so so we are not speaking about people who are defending the Palestinians at all despite the kind of
18:59
silly bromides that the White House and the state department put out there while they continue to support materially the
19:07
ongoing genocide of the Palestinian people um no I mean um you can't I mean
19:14
we we don't really know what what we do know is that the Americans in a kind of a I mean ongoing Imperial uh naive uh
19:22
speak of the day after uh the Palestinian resistance is eliminated I was going to come to that but go on
19:29
Palestinian resistance clearly has not been eliminated as of now indeed this is why Israel continues to be enraged as
19:36
are the Americans that after more than five months we are in the sixth month of this genocidal war that Israel has
19:43
imposed on the Palestinian people and the Israelis have not been able to achieve a single military uh goal that
19:51
they or aim that they had set up for themselves on the contrary uh uh they have not been able to eliminate or
19:56
weaken the Palestinian resistance the only achievement the Israeli military should be proud of as it has always been
20:02
proud of is in fact genocidal acts against civilians this is what uh uh the
20:08
Israeli Army has done and the outright destruction of gaza's Civilian
20:13
infrastructure the the targeting of universities and schools and mosques and libraries and of course
20:21
hospitals these are all of course targeted deliberately to eliminate the possibility of an afterlife for uh
20:27
civilian population of Gaza but so far they have not been able to defeat the resistance I mean just think about it
20:34
the US and its allies were able to defeat Iraq a major Army within five weeks yet the Israelis have not been
20:40
able to actually uh uh uh uh conquer or defeat a Palestinian resistance movement
20:46
that has grown up in a concentration camp Under Siege by Israel that controls
20:51
and surveils every inch of Gaza and has done so you know since 1967 so um it does speak volumes about
21:00
the utter incompetence and unpreparedness of the Israeli military when it comes to defeating uh you know
21:06
sort of the Palestinian resistance and it's high competence in being able to
21:12
eliminate civilian populations in the tens of thousands um but what what is
21:17
going to happen uh after that is I mean you have basically the Palestinian
21:22
collaborator regime in the West Bank uh the Palestinian Authority who are subcontracted by the Americans and the
21:29
Israelis as enforcers of the Israeli occupation um who are collaborating today in the hope that they can get a
21:36
say in running uh Gaza presumably after Hamas is defeated these are all fictions
21:43
and Fantasies um that the Arab regimes that are all agents of the US today and
21:48
as are many uh regimes uh in the Muslim world as well are all in on this right
21:55
this is why they're unable to stand up to the Americans or to the Israelis they also issue bromides of how they're
22:01
against the war against the genocide while at the same time maintaining open or secret relations with the Israelis
22:08
maintaining in fact uh roots to help support the ongoing Israeli War while
22:14
pretending to be helping the Palestinians and this includes a number of Arab countries of
22:20
course just to add to what you're saying what we have seen in the last three or 4
22:25
days uh but especially since blinken's arrival in the Middle East uh we have
22:32
these reports coming out with reference to efforts being on in terms of Saudi
22:39
Israeli normalization uh of course the Palestinian Authority being given charge
22:46
in Gaza uh and and so since you talked about the day
22:51
after nathu on the other hand plans to basically reoccupy Gaza
22:59
and there have been people who talking Jared Kushner has talked about pushing the Palestinians towards the neiv uh and
23:07
putting up a tent uh you know City there and he has said that Gaza should be
23:12
turned into a a a resort of sorts so there are lots of these uh these things
23:19
that are going on but uh on a ironic but slightly lighter note uh somebody on
23:27
Twitter uh sent a a joke uh from the West Bank uh this young Palestinian
23:35
applies for a job to the Palestinian Authority and so after the initial interview and everything uh after he's
23:42
filled out the for forms and everything there's this interview and the interviewer asks him among other
23:49
questions have you ever been in any employment that was against the
23:54
Palestinian interests so this guy uh replies no this is the first time so you
24:02
know so the point being that the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank
24:07
there have been surveys now I just saw a recent survey there not even 12% of the people who uh who want Mahmud Abbas and
24:17
um even though he is now named a new prime minister I don't know how that's going to pan out but uh this this day
24:23
after thing looks more like a fantasy than anything else I I I believe it is a fantasy of
24:29
course for Jared Kushner uh I mean I mean the parochialism of the American business class is only matched by the
24:35
American intellectual clause on this question but uh Jared Kushner of course
24:41
is a is a real estate agent and he thinks the problem in Palestine is a problem of real estate right uh but but
24:48
this is the parochialism of American politics and mainstream uh uh sort of opinion uh on these questions um U no I
24:56
mean uh yes the Palestinian Authority has been uh like I said subcontracted
25:02
since uh the Oslo Accords in 1993 as an enforcer of the occupation uh
25:08
this was very important for the Israelis who have tried ever since the Palestinian Liberation movement had
25:13
received uh International recognition as the soul and legitimate representative of the Palestinian people uh you know
25:20
from the late 60s but especially from the mid-70s after the UN recognized the PLO in 74 after that underlined movement
25:28
recognized the PLO in 73 that they wanted to find an alternative to the PLO who would be uh
25:36
essentially uh sort of under their thumbs who would be uh uh again uh you
25:42
know chosen by the Israeli regime uh against the interest of the Palestinian people they've had several tries they've
25:49
tried with um mayor mayors that they had elected in the West Bank in 1972 that
25:56
didn't work uh in fact that back fired in 76 when the mayors that were elected were all proo Mayors then they tried
26:03
with another uh uh sort of sort of stupid strategy called The Village
26:09
leagues in 1978 to choose a uh sort of Village Elders in the Palestinian
26:15
Countryside as collaborators that also was unsuccessful they're trying to actually replicate this today in Gaza
26:23
the scandal of the village leagues uh but uh they were unable to so a golden
26:29
opportunity presented itself to them after 1991 at that time of course the
26:34
Soviet Union and the Eastern Camp had collapsed and as a result the Palestinians lost a huge amount of
26:39
diplomatic support in international fora with the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Eastern camp and uh arafat's
26:46
miscalculation in the position that he took on the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait has costed had cost at the time the PLO all
26:54
the financial support it used to receive from all the gulf countries IES including from Iraq which of course was
27:00
Under Siege at that time so being bankrupt financially bankrupt
27:05
diplomatically Arafat had no choice in 1993 but to transform the PLO into the
27:11
antio and this is this was the golden opportunity for the Israelis in a way
27:16
it's like transforming the African National Congress into gacha balesi that
27:22
nelon Mandela becomes gacha Bui um but this is Arafat becomes the anti Arafat
27:27
anyway not that Arafat was so radical to begin with uh but nonetheless the PLO seized to represent the interest of the
27:34
Palestinian people in 1993 and became an agent of the Americans the European Union and the
27:40
Israelis in enforcing this ongoing Central Colonial occupation um with uh I
27:47
would say the alliance of the Palestinian business class who found it opportune to make a buck or two uh in
27:54
the occupied territories and they've made several bucks since then I can assure
27:59
yeah this point about Bo lazy I remember you made in one of your op ads also and I remember chuckling when I read that uh
28:07
but here's the thing uh how long can if if this doesn't if if we don't get a
28:13
ceasefire Hamas obviously wants a permanent ceasefire Hamas has given a blueprint the Israelis have rejected
28:20
that Hamas had earlier rejected the Israeli proposal uh or the Israeli American proposal of a of a six week
28:27
ceasefire so where is this headed I mean
28:32
how long can the Gins uh bear the losses
28:38
that you know they have to bear every day I mean people getting maed buried under the rubble getting
28:45
killed according to a poll that I read this morning by a liberal pro-american pollster in the West Bank uh the
28:53
majority of gazans that have been pulled continue to blame Israel and the us for what is happening to them and not Hamas
29:01
so Hamas continues to command great support amongst Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank as well as around the Arab
29:08
world more generally um it is of course uh uh notable that despite massive
29:15
demonstrations across several Arab countries the Arab regimes that are agents of the US uh they you know are
29:23
using of course their repressive apparatuses which the US of course had set up for for them and uh trains their
29:30
uh police forces to depress their populations and prevent more open solidarity with the Palestinian people
29:38
uh this is of course a uh uh in contrast to what we saw say in 1982 when Israel
29:45
invaded Lebanon and uh when it killed upwards of you know 18 to 20,000 people
29:51
so much so that you know the the ultra Zionist President Ronald Reagan at the time accused Israel of committing and I
29:58
quote a Holocaust in Lebanon and of course at that time the first
30:04
accusations uh by the Soviet Union and other countries at the time of Israel as committing genocide began to be uh uh uh
30:12
sort of leveled against Israel so this is not the first time that accusations of genocide uh however the scale today
30:19
is much larger as we can see the role of South Africa as a champion of the Palestinian people is exceedingly
30:26
important of course it exposes Arab uh regimes and regimes in Muslim countries
30:32
as uh uh if not collaborators or explicit collaborators with Israel and
30:38
the us at least as tcid collaborators even though some of these countries have
30:43
try to jump on the bandwagon of South Africa um but still Arab countries who
30:49
have relations with Israel did not cut them off at all uh as for example a
30:54
number of Latin American countries had done so um uh it is clear now that the
31:00
Arab regimes uh not only are direct allies of Israel and enemies of the Palestinian people but also have very
31:06
small maneuverability as agents of the us as puppets of the US government uh
31:12
and they understand which is a bit surprising that they continue to think that uh uh their survival hinges on the
31:20
survival of Israel the survival of Israel as a setet colonial apartheid
31:25
Jewish supremacist racist state is no longer guaranteed um on the contrary
31:31
there's a major of course move internationally and amongst the Palestinians that this state has to be
31:37
undone as it exists to be replaced by a state that offers equality and democracy
31:43
to all the population and as we know um democracy and equality are fate worse
31:49
than death for Jewish Colonial settlers as they had been uh to French Colonial
31:54
settlers in Algeria or English settlers in rodesia in Kenya um settlers uh love
32:02
uh sort of a master race democracy for themselves and aparti for those who
32:07
don't belong to their Race So to offer them equality is considered horrifying this is why the French Colonial Settlers
32:13
of Algeria left back to France when offered equality uh by the Algerian
32:18
post-independence government as had the settlers of Tunisia as had the settlers
32:24
of Kenya um and even of rodesia right so idea is that these settlers are love to
32:32
live in Israel as much or so far as Israel is able to offer them Colonial
32:39
racial and religious privileges but they would have uh they would rather sort of leave the country if offered uh
32:45
democracy uh but this is a possibility the idea this two-state solution uh uh
32:52
uh kind of bogus uh uh rhetoric um doesn't have a chance has not not had a
32:58
chance of ever uh coming to fruition the idea of recognizing a
33:04
Palestinian state that is another bank toan is laughable the Americans continue
33:09
uh uh to offer this as a pallative that's not going to work and why should it work even if there were to be an
33:16
actual independent Palestinian State on the West Bank and Gaza why should anyone accept Israel's right to remain a Jewish
33:24
supremacist racist State no State should have that right isra continues to be ruled by over 65 racist laws that
33:32
guaranteed Jewish Supremacy in Israel no one should accept that even if there are two other Palestinian States not only
33:39
one the idea is you cannot sacrifice the more than 22% of the Israeli population
33:44
who are Palestinian citizens to continue to live forever under a Jewish supremacist racist state in Israel
33:51
governed by these laws so um um this pallative is only used rhetorically the
33:58
Arab governments who claim to continue to support a two-state solution which is not terrible billions of dollars I'm I'm
34:05
assuming uh well not just assuming it's fairly clear from what you're saying that just like uh Professor Edward S uh
34:14
you also uh are not particularly enamored of a two-state solution uh and
34:20
incidentally uh just 29 days before he was assassinated uh in the knesset uh when
34:28
uh Rabin made a speech with reference to the peace agreement he's and that that
34:33
speech is there for anyone to actually uh go through it he said we not talking
34:38
about a Palestinian State we're talking about an administrative Authority so even Rabin had absolutely no intention
34:46
of having a sovereign Palestinian State this has been the same position of
34:53
the Zionist movement since the 1920s at the time the head of the Zion organization hayim vitman insisted to
35:00
the British that the British in line with the League of Nations could not offer the Palestinian population of
35:07
Palestine democracy or set up a parliament for them as they tried to do in the other mandated territories he
35:14
explained to them that if you offer them democracy then we cannot set up a Jewish Colonial settler State there are a
35:20
majority we still haven't brought enough settlers so they cannot cannot be uh uh
35:26
any democratic procedure in Palestine until we have a majority and who could
35:32
expel the population he was absolutely horrified but he said that in fact all we could offer the Palestinians are
35:39
precisely administrative duties control over their educational system although even that is not on offer the Israelis
35:46
as you know and the Americans now intervene in writing the curricula not only of the Palestinian schools but also
35:52
of the entire Arab and Muslim World they want to actually impose a western curriculum on uh the educational
35:59
institutions across the Arab world not only in Palestine and the Muslim world so that was on offer since the late 20s
36:06
by the zign is saying we will not offer them anything more than this they can control their sewage system their
36:12
garbage collection and maybe their education we see this repeated actually in the Camp David Accords that were
36:17
signed with uh anir Sadat of Egypt where Sadat also claimed that he had defended
36:23
or represented the Palestinians Bean offered uh an autonomy plan also it was
36:29
sort of like gradual Gaza first plan then the West Bank which is what ended up
36:35
happening under Oslo the Israelis have been actually principled on this since
36:40
the 1920s all they have offered has always been in the form of uh uh sewage
36:47
control some control over education and the transportation system a sort of Municipal uh autonomy of
36:54
sorts that is all they want to call that these collections of B toan estate this
37:01
is a joke since the early 1990s nothing new is being offered by the Americans
37:08
except yet a a renewal of this stale rhetoric that is unconvincing and
37:13
unpersuasive I absolutely agree what is important in all these
37:19
negotiations what is important for the Americans and the European Union and Israel as well as its Arab allies today
37:26
continues to be the that whatever quote unquote solution to this colonial
37:31
situation has to preserve Israel as a racist State at the end that nothing can
37:37
touch this Cornerstone of European American and American policy that Israel
37:43
has to be maintained as a racist state that Jews have to continue to be the the
37:48
the the Supreme race of Israel nothing can touch that but then and then we can talk about what else we can do so as
37:56
long as there is a commit for Israel to remain a racist Jewish
38:01
State um nothing will change nothing will change interesting interestingly
38:08
shom interestingly shoman talked about two State solution and you know he is in
38:14
favor of that uh and so someone asked him uh why not one state and he said uh
38:21
Israelis are the most racist people on the face of this Earth and therefore I
38:28
don't think that there can be a single state but uh I I I I don't think
38:34
Israelis are the most racist I mean I think white Americans are racist I think white Europeans are racist um I I don't
38:40
think I mean uh the European State the Europeans the Americans the the other wi setler colonies the Canadians the
38:47
Australians the new zealanders these people do not support the rights of the aboriginies of Australia of the Native
38:54
Americans of the first nations of Canada of uh uh the Native Americans of uh uh
38:59
Latin America uh of the Maes of New Zealand to have uh uh uh rights not only
39:06
the Palestinians so uh there is an you know this kind of structural racism of
39:11
Europe is one that Israeli Jews partake of of course and this is why I say
39:17
unless there was a program to dismantle the racist and institutional structures
39:22
of the Israeli State and transforming it into a state that is no longer racist uh
39:28
uh uh and that offers uh Democratic equal rights to all its citizens or the people under its rule then nothing will
39:36
change Palestinian resistance will continue the structured violence I mean you talked about schooling and the and
39:43
the curricula I mean we all know the horrific Scandal of the Canadian schools for for the uh for the Indians the
39:50
Canadian Indian so all of this is on record uh but before I close this episode I want to ask you something
39:57
thing uh last year uh Elan Pape who as you know is is
40:03
an Israeli historian uh he was being interviewed and he spoke of Israel as a
40:09
settler Colonial project and then went on to say that because it is a settler
40:16
Colonial project it is bound to be
40:21
destroyed at some point but then he added that before it gets to that that
40:27
point of Destruction it will become more Savage
40:32
more cruel and it will be that much harder on the Palestinians now is this
40:40
something that you would agree with you really think that Israel has headed towards destruction in and through its
40:46
own actions in and through being a settler Colonial project the United
40:52
States is a settler colonial state so as Canada Australia and New Zealand uh
40:57
and they have survived but many of the Latin American countries continue to be separ colonial states uh run by white or
41:05
meso Elites uh especially in countries where uh uh Native Americans or Indians
41:11
are the majority uh so uh you know especially in the andian countries if
41:16
you will uh now the problem I think with Israel is that Israel like other colonial states who had perished uh
41:24
might end because of its demographic vulnerability so it was unable to kill
41:30
all the Palestinians I mean it's trying to do that now in Gaza uh and as a result Jews have become a minority even
41:37
a decade ago Jews have become a minority in Israel and that is what is spelling
41:43
the possible end of the Jewish Setra Colonial project um no uh Setra Colonial
41:50
regime or country survived with uh more than half its population being the native population for very long so I
41:57
suspect Elan Pape is coming from this perspective and I and I do think he is right that the Israelis would continue
42:04
to be more barbaric in their atrocities um against the Palestinian people and
42:09
against uh their neighbors whether Lebanon or Syria uh uh which they continue to bomb periodically as we know
42:16
uh so um but this is I mean um the Israelis themselves are worried about
42:22
the end of Israel in the last uh few years uh Netanyahu himself has been
42:28
concerned about Israel reaching the age of 80 let alone the age of 100 they have some mythological associations with the
42:36
ancient Jewish kingdoms which did not survive for more than 60 to 80 years and
42:41
so there are some some of that uh uh ongoing indeed you know upwards of a
42:46
million possibly two million Israeli Jews now have dual nationalities with Europe West European and East European
42:52
countries as well as the US uh and other white countries um they I think if their racial privileges
43:00
are threatened by democracy in Israel uh they would uh definitely go to Europe
43:06
the US uh Canada or Australia where White Privilege continues to be respected so they would rather live in
43:12
these countries than remain in Israel so there are clearly there's an expectation by a a good portion of the Israeli
43:20
Jewish population that they need to make alternate plans should this project uh
43:26
come to not um I'm not a prophet I have no idea but I do think that of course uh
43:31
the major Palestinian resistance the BDS movement outside the ongoing armed
43:37
resistance and civil uh Disobedience ongoing in the West Bank inside Israel
43:42
Itself by Palestinians and in Gaza uh with International pressure uh uh is
43:49
mounting more and more uh the international court of justice uh uh
43:55
earlier sort of consideration uh that Israel is committing genocide as a
44:01
plausible accusation that it is now in the process of adjudicating um all of
44:06
these things could lead to more and more major boycotts of Israel and I think I mean Canada amazingly enough a very
44:13
friendly white settler colony of Israel has recently stopped uh or or taken the
44:19
step of no longer sending weapons to Israel uh for the duration of this War
44:25
uh this is all I think ominous one the top quote in the Netherlands has has
44:32
said that uh the country cannot send parts of the F35 uh uh fighter jet to to
44:39
Israel I from the Americans only Germany which I called the fourth is uh
44:46
basically the only country that continues to stand by the Israelis and uh I mean German anti-Semitism and
44:53
racism of course continues in new guys uh they've placed uh all the racism
44:58
against Jews now to uh uh Arabs and Palestinians and Muslims but they
45:03
continue to be just as racist as they had always been so but at any rate I I think these are the two countries that
45:10
are most committed uh to them as of course is Britain although there's a huge
45:15
opposition these countries but I think lots of lots of things are changing
45:21
incrementally some are changing at a faster Pace than others and then of
45:26
course you have the second and third order effects of what has happened of the Palestinian resistance I also
45:33
believe that we have seen a sort of horizontal escalation which uh Israel
45:39
was not expecting uh nor was I mean nobody really knew uh or or thought that
45:45
huis will jump into the frey everyone was afraid of Hezbollah of course but the huis in in many ways have been more
45:51
effective uh uh in in some ways there's been the commodification of weapons
45:58
technology you now have a $200 alasin tandem charge anti-tank guided missile
46:05
that can knock out a $3.5 million maawa tank so you know lots of things are
46:11
happening uh and it seems that um in the in the days and months and
46:17
years to come uh there will there likely to be events that we cannot obviously uh
46:24
predict right now but uh but uh I'm hopeful that uh Israelis will not be
46:30
able to Dent the resistance Spirit of the Palestinians but thank you so much Joseph uh I'm really grateful uh for the
46:38
earlier episode which gave us an insight into the history and also uh this
46:43
episode where we've spoken about the current events uh this is all from this
46:48
episode if you like the discussion click on the Subscribe button that helps us bring you quality discussion until our
• InFocus with Ejaz Haider-Ep31,Mar 26:...
Guest: Joseph Massad is Professor of Modern Arab Politics and Intellectual History at Columbia University. He is the author of several books, dozens of scholarly articles, and hundreds of op-eds. His books include Colonial Effects: The Making of National Identity in Jordan, The Persistence of the Palestinian Question, Desiring Arabs, and Islam in Liberalism. His forthcoming book is tentatively titled The Age of Independence: A Settler-Colonial History of the World. He is a recipient of a number of research and teaching Awards, including the Lionel Trilling Book Award for his book Desiring Arabs, The Scott Nearing Award for Courageous Scholarship, and The Columbia University Faculty Mentoring Award, His works have been translated to more than a dozen languages including Arabic, Turkish, Persian, French, Italian, Spanish, Dutch, Swedish, Japanese, Chinese, German, and Indonesian.
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