Last week, Chinese and 53 African leaders met in Beijing for the 2024 Forum on China-Africa Cooperation Summit where they discussed the future of Africa’s development. On this episode, Kambale Musavuli of the Center for Research on the Congo-Kinshasa joins Amanda and KJ to discuss what came out of this summit, how Africans see China’s role on the continent, and debunk long standing myths of Chinese “debt trap diplomacy” and that China is “colonizing” Africa.
Our understanding of China — and U.S.-China relations — has become a defining feature of all global politics. The China Report is a new show produced in collaboration with Pivot to Peace where every week, journalist Amanda Yee and political analyst KJ Noh will be helping you through all the propaganda with an independent view of the country we are taught to hate, but know so little about.
Transcript
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Chinese and African leaders met in Beijing last week to discuss the future of Africa's development with China
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pledging $50 billion is this part of China's plan to colonize Africa or to
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lock it into a debt trap we'll discuss this and more on this week's China [Music]
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report welcome to the China report a new show produced in collaboration with it to piece every week we'll be helping you
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sort through the propaganda with an independent view of the country that we're taught to hate but know so little
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about I'm your host amand Y and this is my co-host KJ no KJ why don't you get us
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started with this week's headlines this week marks the 80th anniversary of the liberation of comfort women from a
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Japanese military camp on September 7th 1944 80 years ago the first known
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liberation of a group of comfort women from a Japanese military Camp occurred in San yinan Province by Chinese troops
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the Comfort women were the approximately 400,000 girls and women systematically
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trafficked into sexual slavery by the Japanese Imperial Army the system was an
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assembly line method of rape with trafficked girls being raped up to 50
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times per day in rape concentration camps called Comfort stations inside or
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adjacent to military basis Scholars estimate that 75 to 90% died during
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their enslavement the Obama Administration eager to enable Japan's remilitarization
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and to broker a military alliance between South Korea and Japan to contain China worked to dismiss the Comfort
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women issue with under Secretary of State Wendy Sherman claiming that the outrage against the Comfort women system
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and claims for justice were a cheap way of exploiting nationalist feelings and
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warning South Korea against using the issue as an obstacle to consolidating a South Korea Japan military Alliance that
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military Alliance is now institutionalized as a trilateral jackass Alliance designed to exploit
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Japan and South Korea as proxies in an upcoming war against China parents in
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the US will no longer be able to adopt children from China China has announced it's ending its adoption program for
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foreign families only allowing foreign Nationals who are relatives to adopt Chinese orphans according to the Chinese
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government the shift in policy is the result of increased government investment in Education Health Care and
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Social Security as well as the significant increase in living standards which has laid a solid foundation for
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improving the living conditions of Orphans domestically whatever the intentions of
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the adopting parents may be critics have long called out the corruption of the transnational adoption industry where
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unscrupulous for-profit adoption agencies in the west treat children as Commodities to be extracted from the
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global South the Chinese government says its prohibition on foreign adoption is a
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reflection of the country's overall development China leads in 57 out of 64
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critical Technologies according to the Australian strategic policy Institute a
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study from the Australian strategic policy Institute has revealed that China leads the world in 57 out of 64 critical
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Technologies this is all the more remarkable because in 2007 according to the same Institute the US LED in 60 out
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of 64 Technologies the field span defense space energy the environment artificial intelligence biotechnology
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robotics cyber Computing Advanced Materials and Quantum technology all of
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which have received massive State investments in recent years for decades
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China was referred to as the sweat shop of the world incapable of doing Cutting
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Edge research this is certainly not the case could China help end the monkey pox
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outbreak Chinese drug maker cyarm has developed a new vaccine candidate which has been approved for clinical trials
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the vaccine candidate is expected to help prevent and control monkey pox infections as of the end of July China
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had a reported 2,567 confirmed cases of monkey pox but
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there's currently no approved vaccine in the country in Africa there have been over 177,000
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reported cases with the world with the World Health Organization declaring a
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public health emergency recent outbreaks in central Africa have seen death rates
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of about 1 to 3% can statun Railways be
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profitable defying the predictions of Western economists that China's massive high-speed rail system makes no economic
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sense China's high-speed rail made $
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239.000 of profit in the first 6 months of
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2024 according to World Bank studies China's High-Speed Rail as a whole actually offers an 8% return on
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investment China has the world's largest and most affordable high-speed Network
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45,000 kilomet amounting to 2/3 of the world's High-Speed Rail tickets cost
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approximately 7 cents per kilometer traveled the US has been trying to build highspeed rail
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for decades California's highspeed rail Authority was established in 1996 and
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funding appropriated in 2008 but it will not have any working track until
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2030 currently the US has only 80 kilometers of functioning highspeed Rail
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between Boston and Washington DC last week the 2024 Forum on China Africa
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cooperation Summit or focac was held in Beijing where xianping and other Chinese leaders met with leaders of 53 of 54
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Afric African countries to discuss the future of bilateral relations and Africa's development the summit
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concluded with a comprehensive action plan which covers 10 partnership initiatives that address all aspects of
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modernization in Africa including trade Prosperity development cooperation
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healthc care rural revitalization peop to- people exchanges and green development to carry out this action
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plan China pledged to provide Africa a total of over $50
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billion to discuss F the folac summit and what this means for the future of
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Africa and China Africa relations we are honored to have on the show Kali muli
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Kali is an activist writer and analyst with the center for research on the Congo
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Kinshasa Kali welcome to the China report thank you for having me well kbal
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there's a lot to talk about um maybe to get started I just want to get your
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general impressions of the folk Haack Summit um what in your view were some of
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the more significant developments that came out of the summit and you know what does this mean for the future of Africa
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and China Africa relations it's important to contextualize even the meeting I mean
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it's not 24 years since the first fak in 2000 that's when he started and he said
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moment Beyond uh what even African government would say or China would say
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it's a moment where Chinese and Africans are sitting down together to think about what the future should look like what I
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appreciate from the Chinese counterpart or the Chinese uh participants to the
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meeting is that they they are looking at our relations where they say no matter
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what happened on in China in terms of the progress um in China it will not
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happen if Africa doesn't Advance China sees Africa as equal Partners um China has advanced
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tremendously uh could in the past 70 years and they see also what is
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happening on the African continent for them being in the 40s and 50s uh with a
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GDP similar or too low to of some AF countries to today being a country that
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have eradicated extreme poverty um they're seeing that they are saying that
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they cannot have this advancement in China without actually bringing their African Partners together uh so that's
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how I look at fak fak is a time of reflection of how we can work together
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but this fak is very particular 53 African countries were represented um
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and the they were major decisions made there where diplomatic ties between
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China and African countries have been elevated to what they call a strategic
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partnership why is that significant today as we are talking
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about the fourth Industrial Revolution the entire world will come to the African
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continent United States will come Russia will come China will come and so on but China uh when you read the speech that
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shiping is very important right he he's saying that we have been working with Africans
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for centuries we've had this bilateral uh relations with Africans we have made
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advancements but even with our advancement and as working on the African continent we must make sure that
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we put people over profit and it was fascina to actually hear that a a world
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leader saying that we must put people first in our development and created the framework of collaboration increasing
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the um relationship between African countries to CH to a strategic
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partnership building centers know that I think there is a plure of Building 25 uh
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Cent African centers African study centers so that they can learn more and understand more uh the African context
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so from the Chinese counterparts I'm understanding the framework from the African perspective uh we still have
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challenges for African uh leaders particularly participating into that this is a historic moment a amazing
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opportunity to have so much uh resources provided to the African countries but we
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should not forget that on the African continent we still have class struggle
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So within African countries even with the support Africans themselves have to fight uh to challenge uh their
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compradors their leaders to make sure that the development coming in is actually going to um affect the lives of
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the people but beyond even the comments know one thing to give people clear
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picture of why China Africa relation is important what would have happened to
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the world or specifically to the African continent if for the past 24 years China
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was not engaged with the African continent the railroads the roads the
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infrastructure I'm speaking to you right now from Ghana um if you go to Sprintex is a
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neighborhood here in Ghana the highway that's being built is by Chinese right
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and when we contrast that with Western development and Western support what is it that we are getting from them we
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getting GMO seeds that's not what we need we're getting NOS coming and doing
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uh programs that is not lasting that is not affecting a tremendous ly the lives
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of the people infrastructure building on the African continent impact every
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single African and that's what China has been engaged in and we on the African
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continent we have to do everything in our power to hold our leaders accountable so that these infrastructure
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uh projects complete uh for some of them and that the people continue to benefit
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from it I really like the point that you made about Mutual cooperation between Africa
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and China I just want to list some of the uh like notable initiatives uh that
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came out of uh this Summit um they're planning to implement 30 infrastructure
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projects in Africa they're planning to build a m a multimodal sear rail transport Network um which will connect
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China's Central and Western regions to Africa they're planning to launch 30
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clean energy projects they're planning to provide 60,000 training opportunities
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in programs that are focused on empowering women um and Youth
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Development so you know there's like a little bit of this Trope that China is
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colonizing Africa um and you know there was very little news coverage in Western media uh
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on folac itself and what was published tended to focus on China as this
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Boogeyman uh as it often does uh trying to to depict it as this predatory actor
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in Africa uh trying to say that China is locking Africa into a debt trap um
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through this 50 $50 billion investment uh on the continent um for example a
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reuter's headline published on September 7th reads China stops short of Africa
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debt relief as it pledges more cash um and this despite you know the president
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of South Africa when asked about the $50 billion China had pledged um he stated
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that these Chinese Investments were part of uh a mutually beneficial relationship
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and not a so-called debt trap so I guess how would you respond to these
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accusations that China is colonizing Africa um how would you respond to these
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accusations you know this common Trope that China is locking Africa into a debt
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trap it's quite said that the narrative continue to be spread it's been debanked
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not just by people who follow closely China African relations even by Western Scholars themselves uh saying that there
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is no such thing as Deb diplomacy or Africa Deb trap does not exist if you
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analyze all of Chinese contract to the African continent uh you'll notice that
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in terms of the terms it's usually uh to the general standards
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of the terms that exist and even during covid I think China was the only country
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or one of the only countries uh to forgive uh so much depth to African
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countries uh due to what was happening during covid so the the facts already exist and we understand why uh this
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narrative continue to uh be pushed because the Western World cannot compete with China uh in terms of China's uh
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investment on the African continent China is on the African continent one of my uh mentors used to tell me uh when
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speaking about China that it's 1.4 billion people it's almost one out of
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fifth human being on the planet is from China Chinese are going to be everywhere it's totally normal scientifically so
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it's not a question of is China U on the African continent
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is it exploting no Chinese are around the world and they are engaged on the
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African continent the question that should be asked is not around the dep diplomacy right the challenge of Chinese
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development on the African continent is more so the African Coors not China
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China is coming and saying that we need the lithium you have the lithium in
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order for me to Pro uh to get access to the lithium I would like to trade with
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you so the countries are offering the resources in exchange of development but
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in the process of the development if something goes wrong for example let's
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say uh the minister of Minds in the DRC of course I'm just using a extreme
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example it's not a concrete example mismanage funds of the development that
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has nothing to do with the Chinese but Chinese project exist you can go and see the dam you can go and
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see the roads you can go and see the different infrastructural
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project that they've done on African continent so if we're speaking about the death why is the death happening is not
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because China is forcing uh Africans the last point I will make is really an
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insult to those who suffer colonialism to actually say China is
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colonizing the African continent because if we know the
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definition of classical colonialism we are not seeing that China is in total
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control of a country the Army the uh the land and the resources and dictating
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what is actually happening in the countries that is not what's happening if you want to know what colonialism is
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ask me in the Congo Belgian colonialism King loo when he came in 1885 and took
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control of the Congo after the so-called Bing conference conges were their hands
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were being chopped off to get access to uh the rubber right you need to meet the
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quarter of the kilogram let's say if it was 60 kilogram of rubber uh if you
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don't bring that your hands will be chopped off whose's hand Chinese are chopping off on the African continent so
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people who just thr these words or CH know China is recolonizing Africa uh
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China is enslaving the African continent no one is being called as u a slave on
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the African continent we do have a challenge with African compradors how they are managing the pro the projects
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and the processes but that is not uh what China is doing but in a
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constructive way and that's why I love she she's speech he created the
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framework of collaboration and he was not just speaking to the African continent right
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he was speaking to the Chinese and reminding them that we know the Chinese
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people have transformed our country we have set pillars for shared future right
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this was one of the elements of the CPC Congress where he start speaking about
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the importance of the share future but in fak he added that the share future
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right of the world cannot happen until the 2.8 billion human beings Chinese and
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Africans are working hand to hand to improve the quality of life of the
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people and putting people first so when the framework is already there and you see how these projects are coming out
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one will actually Wonder that's why I use the example of Western development
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uh on the continent show me the road built by usaid show me the hospital built by uh
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Western um institutions that is actually affecting the lives show me the
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railroads I mean even the railroad that the United States is speaking about
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lately the So-Cal lito Corridor that they are revamping right and this is
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again an example of how you can compare Chinese development and US development
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right the the US is revamping a railroad to get access to Congo's copper
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and they are not hiding it they actually saying this is what they're doing but the railroad they are revamping is a
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railroad that was built by China decades ago so right now revitalized
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road to get to the Copper but that's not what China is saying China is saying that we need to improve the conditions
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of the lives of the people the Western Nations particular the United States saying we need to get access to Congo
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coer and we are going to build the railro fix the railroad to be able to get it from thec so I hope uh that this
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U myth disappears very quickly when people start analyzing uh what actually China is doing on the
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African continent because there are so so many facts already on the ground showing that that is not the case uh the
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challenge of Chinese investment as I've always presented it is more the African compradors while mismanaging the project
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um Kamal um you know I'm reminded from what you said of what president xiin
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ping he said on the path to modernization no one no country should be left behind let us rally the two 2.8
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billion Chinese and Africans on our Collective path to modernization to
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promote the modernization of the global South with China and Africa uh and to
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write a new magnificent chapter in peace security and prosperity I think as you
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said these are really inspiring words and they remind me also of the work of uh Leela Watson the indigenous
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Australian activist and academic who said if you are here to help me you're wasting your time but if your Liberation
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is tied up with mine then we can work together and we know that this has
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always been a mutual relationship China and Africa have worked together for
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decades China supported every National Liberation struggle and of course Africa also militated for China to join the
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United Nations and so we can see this win-win development that really allows
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us to break the Global South to break out of neoc colon out of the western neocolonial Plantation uh but you still
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see this kind of ongoing uh Trope especially among the Western left uh where they say that uh
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you know China is imperialist you know China you know it's it's a little bit
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like the people who say you know all lives matter all imperialism matter you know uh it's it's this notion that uh
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any kind of challenge to imperialism must itself be imperialist just as a
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challenge to racism must also be racist so I just wanted to get some more of
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your thoughts about this very very pervasive Trope uh in the west among the
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Western left uh and also uh you know how what are some of the ways that we can uh
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debunk that you're already doing that with facts but what are some other ways that we can think about challenging this
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uh propaganda Trope I was say to listen to Africans uh and what they are saying about what
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China is doing on the African continent and I'll use another example right now in West Africa u a lot of things are
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changing on in West Africa we have Mali burkinafaso and N three African
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countries who have left a origional body called echas and are charting A New Path
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of transformation that is inspiring to many of us in in West Africa
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why did why were they cools in these countries right when you start speaking
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to the people on the ground they tell you it's because of Western imperialism so here's a definition of the people of
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Mali ner and binaso and then we're going to try to compare it with is China doing
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the same thing Mali nja and Bina Faso have a problem that the currency in the
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country the fra is a currency controlled by the bank of France
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right they print it not only that they keep the gold reserve of these countries
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in the Bank of France and they determine the value of that currency
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to uh the um the Euro that's what they're using is
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China printing African currencies and keeping
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Africa's gold in the banks in China no that is not happening here's a second
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example of what the people of M bfas are saying about Western imperialism
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specifically French imperialism right they're saying that foreign military
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bases in their countries where they have no access to is
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imperialism they've seen Africa us Africa in their countries they've seen French soldiers in the countries and
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they've educated the people on those countries saying that these foreign soldiers are our enemies because they
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they are affecting the sovereignty of our country is China imposing its military
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in Mal neria and Bina because that's the definition that the Africans are using
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around what is happening there no so if I just use that very simplistic
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example of what we on the African continent are saying what we seeing is imperialism I affecting our economy how
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it's affecting our milit how it's affecting our sovereignty and we are fighting to kick out the French military
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they closed the US uh military base in ner they closed the French military base
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right m n they are pushing them out have they pushed out the Chinese
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no so we know what imperialism is we do not know what those Western lefts are
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calling imperialism but we are in a concrete era where we are seeing how Africa is moving very fast and we have
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hope that more and more young people are understanding what is happening in the countries they they understand their own
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internal class struggle and they are fighting to transform the world we
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understand also that Africa holds the resources that the world needs we won't
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have the fourth Industrial Revolution we Africa's resources and we understand that as K Kuma say we are not going to
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look East Norwest we're going to look forward what does that mean we will work with anyone who will improve the
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conditions of the lives of our people and who is the first in line
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saying I am going to do that it is not France it is not the
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United States it is definitely not the UK who right now are actually trying to
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figure out how to ship out uh immigrants out of uh the UK
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but we know what China is saying China is saying we are going to elevate all
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Africans countries diplomatic relation to a strategic relationship they are providing
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scholarships to to thousands of African uh I think um on one of the flight I
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took there was a young man traveling to China to study architecture and I was
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asking him why are you going to China to study architecture and how do you find out about the school I said information
27:58
is on the website I appli for the scholarship I was able to get the scholarship I am going to get an education that's going to help me when I
28:06
go back to my country to develop my country how many countries around the world are giving the type of
28:12
scholarships that China is giving to provide education to the African people so I'm clear about uh what China is
28:19
doing on the African continent it is not imperialism in the sub region in the West Africa we know what imperialism is
28:26
we are fighting against imperialism we are closing down the embassies we are closing down the military bases and we
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are saying we Africans I have to regain our sovereignty and work with equal Partners to transform the lives of our
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people Comal I was hoping you could situate um you know these Summits like
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fak into the historical role that China has played uh on the African continent
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uh you know one of the more significant developments that came out of the summit was um China Tanzania and Zambia uh they
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signed a memor a memorandum of understanding to revitalize the tazara railway so China pledged a billion
29:13
dollars I believe uh to revitalize this toward this project and this Railway was
29:18
completed in 1975 and China had lent at that time about $400 million toward this
29:25
project and they also sent a team of specialist engineers and about 15,000 workers to
29:31
help build it um and at that time it symbolized this kind of third world
29:36
solidarity um and resistance to colonialism and it was designed to provide um African countries this this
29:44
kind of economic independence away from uh rodesia and apartheid South Africa at
29:50
the time so I I was wondering if you could speak to the significance of um
29:57
you know the tar our Railway what it symbolizes and also how do you situate this kind of bilateral cooperation uh
30:04
that fol represents with China's historical role on the
30:10
continent I mean the former president of Tanzania and he himself uh has spoken
30:18
many times about the importance of these railroad which actually connected the
30:24
people of that region especially in the moment where Africans were United to fight the aparted regime now let's
30:30
not forget that Tanzania became a hub of many of the African revolutionaries know
30:37
going there to be trained uh the Dar Salam school has had many of the um
30:45
African leaders actually attended uh who were fighting for liberation of African continent and that ra The Rail Road help
30:52
connect the people of the region um but I will add one thing no it's really
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important to talk about the past 24 years or the past 7 years but we have to
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go back to she she speech China Africa relation is
31:11
centuries old right we talking about centuries we but framing it from the
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moment of U 1949 to pres is important so we on the African continent have always
31:24
had relationship with China in terms of trade in 2024 as we are looking into the
31:31
transformation of the world and looking at also what happened in the past half China was implicated or supported uh The
31:38
Liberation movement on the African continent why did they do that because they were also going through their own
31:45
struggle right as they they became independent um the revolution took place
31:54
1949 and then looking into the African continent with all the promising young
32:00
Africans they understood already in 1949 no matter if we declare the People's
32:06
Republic of China if on the African continent people are not liberated it's not going to go
32:13
anywhere and already back then um maybe it's an extreme to make that example the
32:19
one year of the 50s and 60s will be Jan Li right Premier Jan Li had a special
32:28
relationship withw Kuma of Ghana he made many trips on the African continent he
32:35
made many trips also here uh to Ghana and I think he was also the one who announced to qu Kuma when he was
32:44
Landing uh in China that there was a coup against him in
32:49
19666 um but even noticing that the president of Ghana when he had the coup
32:56
was actually on his way a a visit to China gives you a sense of how closely
33:02
and we collaborated with China we continue to collaborate there but Jan Li's work up until today when you look
33:09
at The Archives shows the uh level of humility of Chinese to be with the
33:18
African through the struggle because it wasn't easy for China in 1960s in the 1960s the GDP of Ghana in the 1960s was
33:26
higher than the GDP of China then but even then China provided the support
33:33
this is why it's um when I'm listening to she speech it's a historic moment
33:39
that after over seven decades of the people uh People's
33:45
Republic of China existing that he's saying that no matter how development our brothers and sists
33:52
on the African continent must be side by side with us if we want a shared future
33:59
because he could have easily said that the share future of China is tied to the United States he didn't say that you
34:06
could have also said that the share future of China is with Europe he did not say that he said it's very important
34:15
that 2.8 billion people Chinese and Africans come together for that share future that he understand that the
34:22
future of the world of the world lies in Africa and that that's how I see that
34:28
the solidarity the historical solidarity that China has provided to the development of infrastructural project
34:35
be in the East be in the center of Africa and in the west to present that
34:41
we must work together to transform the world and China is ready to do so yeah I
34:46
really like what you said that the future lies in Africa and the only way that you know the only way forward is uh
34:53
through mutual collaboration so Kamal thank you it was an honor to have you on the China report thank you so much well
35:00
as we head into the final weeks of the election Republicans and Democrats are trying to fently outo each other both uh
35:08
on the escalation of the new world of the new Cold War on China as well as the militarization of the border and some
35:16
are even creatively combining the two uh as you see here we have a Fox news clip
35:22
of former Secretary of State under Trump Mike Pompeo claiming that China is
35:29
sending armies of fighting age males in the hundreds of thousands that's a quote across the border to destroy America and
35:36
our way of life this is our Red Scare of the week and just a reminder if you enjoyed this episode don't forget to
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like share and subscribe and we'll see you next week on the China report you know and it's really remarkable when you
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consider uh you know obviously there's a very coordinated effort by China to infiltrate the highest levels of the
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government but there's also evidence that they have uh they're sending armies of people just across the border because
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the Biden Harris regime has just allowed the border to remain wide open Charlie we all know that most of
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the fentanyl that has killed so many Americans all across this country uh comes at least the precursors come from
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China we know that we've got uh fighting age males in the hundreds and thousands from China coming across our border that
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is not an easy route if anybody who ever tried to travel to China that's hard with commercial airlines to do so and
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sneak across our border is very difficult and so there is a determined effort this is not random this is not
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just a bunch of folks seeking Freedom this is a Chinese Communist Party effort whether it's propaganda on social media
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fentanyl coming across our border uh who knows what Terror campaigns working inside the government this is this is a
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concerted strategic effort against the United States and the Biden Administration shut down the Department
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of Justice of China initiative that President Trump and his team had put in place our risk is much today than it was
