Video Infoblog: Why Palestinian Liberation Threatens the US Imperialist Order, w/ Bikrum Gill
The Ziocon world order is threatened by Palestinian Liberation.
The struggle for justice in Palestine isn’t just a fight against the settler colonial Zionist project. It’s a struggle against US imperialism itself. To discuss this and more, Rania Khalek was joined by Bikrum Gill, a political scientist and author of the forthcoming book “The Political Ecology of Colonial Capitalism: Race, Nature, and Accumulation.”
Transcript
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the conquest of Palestine the colonization of Palestine the subjugation of Palestine this genocide um these are not things that
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are simply only about Palestine itself of course we don't want to minimize the Palestinian national question and the
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question of Palestinian sovereignty but the denial of sovereignty to Palestinians and again the conquest of
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Palestine is a part of a broader Regional project that is a that is core to the exercise of us uh uh Global power
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the maintenance of the access of resistance the maintenance of resistance forces in the region is really pivotal
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to actual real Palestinian Sovereign Reclamation going forward but that's not just for Palestine that's for the whole
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region right like I think uh then for the people of Yemen to exercise real sovereignty the people of Syria uh
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people of Libya uh in Iran and elsewhere to actually have a sovereign basis um is
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a is a broader Regional question as well hello everyone I'm Ria khik and this is dispatches the struggle for justice in
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Palestine isn't just a fight against the Colonial Zionist project it's a struggle
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against us imperialism itself to discuss this and more I'm joined by bickram Gil
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a political scientist and author of The forthcoming book the political Ecology of colonial capitalism race nature and
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accumulation but before we jump into it this is just part of this episode the full interview is available to
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breakthrough news members only you can become a member at patreon.com breakthrough news and as
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always be sure to hit the Subscribe button and the Bell so you get a notification whenever we post new
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content and if you appreciate this show you can also donate Below on YouTube b
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welcome back to the show uh great to be here thanks for having me back well it's great to have you back there is so much
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to talk about um in the past every time I've had you on we've discussed imperialism in various ways and we're
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going to do that again but we're going to talk about that in relation to Palestine so let's start off with
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imperialism in the Palestine question you know now that Palestine and Gaza are dominating the world's attention can you
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explain to our audience why is the fight for liberation of Palestine also or
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actually a fight against us imperialism um yeah so the the it is I
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think there's some self-evident reasons why it is not just a fight against Zionist colonialism it's not justif
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fighting against Zionism um I mean self-evidently we can see that the United States has always been a major
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backer of the Zionist um state that it has it it Provisions as it has over the
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past six months it has provisioned large um amounts of weapons it it provides
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political cover consistently so there is a self-evident uh reality we can grasp
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where it is it would not be possible for Zionism and and the Zionist project to continue without us support I think
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that's a very basic point that that's worth reiterating um and you know what this has been something that even Israeli Zionist media has constantly
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emphasized is that if there wasn't these constant arms transfers it' be very difficult for um the genocide to
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continue for the for the um Israeli Colonial project to sustain itself so I
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think at a very basic level it is not enough to Simply say um the Palestinian
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struggle is an opposition to Zionism when behind Zionism clearly stands us imperialism in a material and a
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political regist so I think that's um a very important point to begin with so it it it is
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necessarily an Anti-Imperialist struggle it is a fight against us imperialism
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because materially it without without us imperialism this this project could not go on and there are specific material
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interests that the US has in the subjugation of Palestine and the ongoing colonization of Palestine which I know
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uh we're going to get into some of those um a bit later on but I think that's maybe a key point and I just want to
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maybe elaborate on that a little bit here is that I think very often there's
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a category error that people make where they um think that a colonized or
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colonized relationship can be isolated from a broader World System right so you can have a resistance against
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Zionism um and maybe even appeal to us imperialism as a way to facilitate
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Palestinian Liberation struggle um and I know we're going to get into some of that later on as well but I think that's a mistake that is made
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uh that somebody like Gustin kanafani even thinking about British imperialism was clear place a strong emphasis on is
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that um it is it is the con conquest of Palestine is core to the entire
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imperialist world system so you got to get out of this one to one understanding that the struggle is just a colonized or
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colonized that in fact Palestine is Central to the whole imperialist world system and what we mean by imperialism
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Beyond just a colonizer colonized onetoone system relationship is an imperialist system where you have a core
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and a primary Imperial power which is the United States which through a monopoly on Military and financial
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capital is able to impose relationships on the entirety of the periphery not
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just Palestine but Palestine is key key to this so yeah I would just start off by saying that like you can see very
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clearly uh there's a need uh for the defeat of us imperialism for Palestinian
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Liberation right because it is this that acts as the back stop uh for Israeli power
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no it's all a really really really good point and I just want you to elaborate a bit because we're GNA I'm going to you know kind of zoom in on a lot of those
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points that you made and we can um dissect them a bit more but some people might say like why focus on this when
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obviously like we're talking about a genocide and Gaza and we should be focused on Israel Palestine and like why
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make it about this broader struggle so I'm just I'm curious if you could explain why it's so important to
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incorporate anti-imperialism into our analysis of Palestine right exactly so I
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think that's the where I will say that it is vital I'll go back to the point I
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just made right so when we have um the writings of gusan kanafani what what is
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what is what is the emphasis there is that like there's a mistake that the Palestinian Elite made or not just the
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Palestinian leader others might make from the Inception or the beginnings of the Zionist project that you can appeal
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to the Imperial power that you can appeal to British imperialism or us imperialism um go around and and try to
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get the US to to abandon let's say the Zionist State um and to support
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Palestinian Liberation right so it becomes this question of rather than um
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focusing on how Palestinian resistance can challenge not just Zionist power but imperialist Power um by not
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understanding Palestine as an Anti-Imperialist struggle the move can be okay you fight Zionist colonialism
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but you seek to appeal to us imperialism for protection you seek to appeal to us imperialism to enforce laws and rules
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and Etc that it's never going to do right so I think it's really pivotal to understand that it is in fact us
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imperialism that is the primary contradiction in Palestine right that the the subjugation of Palestine is core
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to the maintenance and reproduction of us Imperial control over Key Resources
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uh over US Financial power that it exercises not over only over the global self but over its own quote unquote
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allies in Europe and elsewhere right so I think the question of
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anti-imperialism is fundamental right it's it's only through the defeat of us imperialism in the region that
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Palestinian Liberation can really take hold right because it is through that defeat that the conditions for actual
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sovereignty for not just Palestinians but all peoples across the region uh will become possible so I'll just say
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rather than appeal to us imperialism to protect Palestinians against uh Zionism
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and sometimes that appeal is hey we agree with you us imperialism on every other issue uh just just come and
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recognize Palestinian rights the the correct move is to actually uh contest and seek to weaken uh us Imperial power
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and defeat it so that removes the source uh uh of support and back stop that
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enables Zionism to continue to do this right so it's um it is fundamentally an
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Anti-Imperialist struggle that is actually key to the broader World systemic challenge to us imperialism
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today and when we talk about you know Palestine as a us or colonizing
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Palestine is really a US imperialist project why you know what what does the US get out of it why is the US backing a
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genocide in Gaza because obviously they wouldn't do it unless they're benefiting in some way right so the US is
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definitely uh benefiting but I would I would say it's even there's something even much more uh at stake for the US
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than simply benefiting I think right now the the US Imperial power has been challenged in a way in our cont
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temporary conjunction way it never has before right it's it's come to crisis uh not simply we can think about what's
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happened in the context of the war in Ukraine over the past few years with the rise of China um you have this this
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clear weakening of the basis of us imperialism I think um so the the the
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need to uphold and maintain the Zionist proxy is kind of a really existential
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crisis for for us imperialism right and I think um you know for for an example
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the the the agreement that China helps broker between Iran and Saudi Arabia
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last year right it clearly opens a very different Regional configuration um that could really
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fundamentally and and permanently um undermine the US Regional order through
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which the US has maintained a certain relationship between the oil and the US dollar um that has been key to how the
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US has enforced dependency of other states upon it uh for its exercise of
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imperialist power right so the US um cannot allow for uh Israel to fall it
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cannot allow for for for Zionism to weaken because it is key to the projection of us power in West Asia
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which is key to the projection of us power globally right so this is the and I know we're going to get into later on
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but that dollar oil relationship has been very key to how it has subjugated Germany and Japan underneath it to how
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it has subjugated the global South more generally and so the the um the question
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of uh of the the the interest the US has in in the genocide is that um if the
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Palestinians are not disarmed if they're not deterred right if the which will
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bring about an existential crisis in the Israeli State then this will remove a key let's say proxy bull workk of us
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Imperial power in the region now there are of course direct benefits that the US gets in terms of um we can think
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about the military industrial complex we can think about weapons companies and the profits they make but I think more
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fundamentally this is a strategic question that the United States is confronting um because it is part of the
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US's refusal to entertain the possibility of an emerging multipolar world right the desire to maintain
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imperialist domination over the entire world necessitates the maintenance of us absolute domination over West Asia which
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necessitates the Zionist proxy to maintain those relations
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well I mean that's a really really excellent way to frame it and I think that something you were alluding to
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earlier I want to touch on that and here's how I'll put it is I think there's this stream of liberalism um you
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know that in recent years had become increasingly vocal on the issue of Palestine because of what Israel does is
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just so horrific right it's just this like segregationist like farri fascistic
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settler Colony um but when I talk about this particular stream of liberalis ISM
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they they speak of Palestine in you know you know Pro Palestine terms um but they
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do it while remaining very silent or in some cases even supportive of imperialist policies in the rest of the
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region and here I mean the kinds of people who will be for example Pro Palestine but then also they supported
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the regime change war on Syria or they supported the NATO intervention in Libya or you could even go out of the US these
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are the kinds of people who might you know support uh encroachment around
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Russia and the ongoing you know funding of this endless this war the endless war in Ukraine to bleed the Russians you
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know you'll have a person who thinks all of those things from a very liberal imperialist perspective but then on
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Palestine they're like oh no no no that's occupation it's horrible which is great I'm glad they understand occupation is bad however Um this can be
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very problematic so why is it crucial to sort of prevent that stream of
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liberalism from dominating because I think what the the the part that I think is really dangerous here is that they tend to be quite successful as isolating
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Palestine from the rest of the region so I guess here I'm asking you to explain
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how you know how and why you can't have a genuinely liberated Palestine without getting rid of us imperialism in the
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rest of the region like it's not like you can just be good on Palestine and not on anything else because the two go
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together yeah no exactly and I think the examples that you rais particularly around the the um the proxy war in Syria
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and in Libya and even Ukraine I think those are very important examples that are part of an interconnected project to
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maintain us imperialism right so I think again the first point to emphasize once again is that the conquest of Palestine
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the colonization of Palestine the subjugation of Palestine this genocide um these are not things that
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are simply only about Palestine itself of course we don't want to minimize the Palestinian national question and the
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question of Palestinian sovereignty but the denial of sovereignty to Palestinians and again the conquest of
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Palestine is a part of a broader Regional project that is a that is core to the exercise of us uh Global power
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right and and before that British Global power so what we mean by that is that we know from British imperialism's Embrace
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of Zionism and its working with Zionism a key objective there is to establish um
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at a very basic level imperialist control over the hydrocarbon wealth of the region now of course you can do this
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through local proxies the Saudis and other client states right but there is a way in which Zionism is understood to be
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a direct Western implantation in the region right that can allow uh for a a
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more acute and sharper uh form of political and Military control and projection of power in the region now
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that control over oil um and the linkup it's had with the dollar has been key like I mentioned to to us Imperial power
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and its projection across the world so that's one point worth emphasizing right that the the conquest of Palestine is a
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part of a broader Regional dynamic to deny sovereignty to the peoples of the region in order to control the flow of
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resources into and out of the region u in a way that benefits us capitalist
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imperialism so that's one thing now the the second point though is in isolating Palestine from the broader Regional
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Dynamics the point is to weaken Palestinian resistance and I it behooves the left and those in solidarity with
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Palestine to to understand this right if you're in solidarity with Palestine but you're not attendant to the Dynamics
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that are either strengthening or weakening actually material Palestinian resistance then you what you risk doing is
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transforming your engagement with Palestine into one in which you at most what you can do is beg for the west or
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the imperialist to recognize Palestine and to save Palestine and to afford
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Palestine some autonomy right but what are the concrete conditions for palestin Palestinian Liberation right the
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concrete conditions are to challenge the terms through which Palestinians have been denied sovereignty and people
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across the rest of the region right now how has this this occurred is well it's been through the overwhelming military
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power that Zionism has exercised in the region Visa with the support first of
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British imperialism and then us imperialism right so now to understand the example of Syria that you emphasize
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here um we know that in the 1980s of course that the invasion of Beirut leads
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to the disarming of the of the Palestinians right it leads to an Oslo Road which is a part of the the Apex of
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us Imperial power at the end of the century the end of History there's no alternative get in line just play by the
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rules um that the United States has set and the and the Western World more generally has set so Global cell States
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they have to to beg for loans and credit and accept uh structural adjustment conditions and in the Oslo framework the
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Palestinians have to lay down their arms and basically depend upon some idea of
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us beneficence or Goodwill to ensure that they will eventually get a state that their land will not be stolen and
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Etc but we know that doesn't happen uh through Oslo land theft accelerates and there is no road to Palestinian
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sovereignty because there's no material basis to it because the Palestinians have been disarmed in the leadup to Oslo
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but what's else is happening in the region of course we know that the Iranian Revolution the rise of hisbah in
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Lebanon um the uh eventual emergence of an axis a a a corridor between Iran
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Syria and and the and hisbah that establishes an actual material force a
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material basis with which to challenge Zionist and US Imperial power in the
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region right so there's a material basis being built through which now there can be a shift from dependency right from a
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certain kind of uh begging and hopefulness that imperialism will grant you rights to actually R raising up a
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military power a force capacity that can become the real basis for sovereignty what what is sovereignty right
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exercising Sovereign power over your resources your lands your labor in a way that is not dependent on an imperial
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power well then you need to have a force to be able to stand up to the imperialists and the colonizer so this
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is being raised up through this emerging Alliance in the 80s and 90s and 2000s
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and we know of course we've discussed this before but hisbah is very successful in doing so and in 2006 when
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they defeat uh Israel actually to take a step back you know the the successes of
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hisbah in the 1980s and 90s is what inspires the Palestinian second in which again then introduces this equation of
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force through which settlers are expelled from Gaza so we're seeing a different Road emerging a real road to real Palestinian sovereignty which is a
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part of a road to broader Regional sovereignty for peoples across the region more generally right now how do
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the imperialists respond is you have Tony Blair speak of a Shia Crescent in 2006 you have the King of Jordan using
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the same language right and and you know actually Jordan and Egypt are very good examples here of how you have these two
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states that maybe at one point represented strategic depth for Palestinian resistance at one point
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represented a a a a depth of of supporting armed struggle of armed resistance in the 60s and 70s earlier uh
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then then become a actually uh um a support for Zionism and imperialism
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right so this is what's being attempted to be imposed upon Syria after 2006 Syria becomes clearly a Target to
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disrupt this uh weapons Corridor to disrupt the material basis of a rising
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challenge to imperialism in zence that is both inspiring and supporting Palestinian resistance right so in so
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far as there is an attempt to dink these struggles right to delink uh Palestinian Liberation
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struggle from the US attempt to repress uh this axis by conducting a proxy war
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in Syria right this is a very um it has certain very risky implications right
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because what it will do is will again and again return Palestinians to a dependent state right you remove uh if
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you smash the Syrian State you smash the Libyan state if you destroy Yemen if you destroy all of these Regional forces
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that are actually constructing a power a real concrete power to challenge imperialism then you will leave
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Palestine again isolated and dependent and what only hoping for the Good Will
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of Western Civil Society right so I think that is really I think one thing that would emphasize very strongly is
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that um the the maintenance of the access of resistance the maintenance of
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resistance forces in the region is really pivotal to actual real Palestinian Sovereign Reclamation going
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forward but that's not just for Palestine that's for the whole region right like I think uh then for the
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people of Yemen to exercise real sovereignty the people of Syria uh people of Libya uh in Iran and elsewhere
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to actually have a sovereign basis um is a is a broader Regional question as
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well and you you touched on us uh I guess the resources in the region and
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and that's obviously like the resource of oil is very important I'm curious if you could maybe uh explain the US dollar
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oil relationship and how that projects us power through the region and really Beyond through its control over the
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region yeah yeah I think so that that's that's key and that's something that I think it's it's useful to spend some
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time on so you know when we think something that I've kind of been circling back to here is when we think
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about what is imperialism okay so colonialism can be a direct onetoone the
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colonizer colonizes a colonized population you have a on toone relationship now imperialism is a
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broader structure right through which an imperial power imposes relations of dependency so even if you're formally
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free you depend upon the Imperial core for access to Key Resources without which you cannot engage in projects of
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economic development that are required maybe stabilize your society and your state to some extent right and now that
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enables a constant value flow a surplus value flow from the periphery to the coure now imperialism does this it does
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this not by exercising always direct territorial control right it's not like
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that their imperialism necessitates always that they H usurp the sovereignty
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of Saudi Arabia or that that there's a usurpation of the sovereignty of certain States what is key for imperialism is
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controlling the flow of capital across borders who has Sovereign power over the flow of capital and key Comm Commodities
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into and out of key regions and across borders right now that is very key so
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now obviously the key commodity in our world system for the past Century has been oil right now that's that's that's
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very clear but there is a specific way in which the United States tied up the oil with the dollar in the 1970s right
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now this was done in order to maintain uh us power over both its quote unquote
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allies and the global South at a moment of declining US economic competitiveness
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right so um after World War II there's a collective imperialism that samam argues
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emerges right between the US EU and Japan H by the 1970s though there's contradictions that are emerging here
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where Germany and Japan are starting to out compete the United States right and the US has been in in a state of
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declining economic competitiveness for half a century we clearly see that in relation to China today right so now at the same time
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Global South states are rising in an era of decolonization trying to undertake import substitution industrialization
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trying to establish the basis of sovereign industrialization so there's a material basis through which you can
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contest neocolonialism overcome dependency so what the United States does in the
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1970s after the 1973 War it it establishes a an agreement with Saudi
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Arabia um through which uh actually just to take a step back now why does it do so is because you know France and other
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of its allies actually start calling in the US dollar this is very well known right in the 1960s de gal and others say
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you know we don't think the dollar is actually uh a safe worthwhile uh Reserve
24:15
currency we would like to call it in for gold right and we know Nixon then delinks the dollar from gold and at that
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moment very shortly thereafter the United States then makes an agreement with Saudi Arabia to essentially uh
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relink the dollar with oil right so there's a 1974 agreement with Saudi Arabia through which us through which
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oil will be sold in dollars and the US will provide a military security umbrella to protect Saudi Arabia so what
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does that do by um forcing or linking up
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all sale of oil with US dollars that means even if Germany is out competing the United States even if Japan is out
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competing the United States or any Global C State they need oil for any form of production right now to have oil
25:00
then you have to hold US dollars right so what this does is it Provisions the United States with a depth of financial
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power right through which they're able to both skim off the top of all economic activities without being a productive
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player in any of them with the Chinese have recently be calling us sorage power um through which they profit by having
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the global Reserve currency um but then it also what it leads to is it leads to
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Capital constantly parking itself in US Banks and then US Banks then are able to control the provisioning of capital and
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Loans to the global South and it produces and increases this dependency which really uh consolidates by the
25:39
1990s era of globalization right so the oil dollar relationship restores US
25:45
Financial Supremacy even though there isn't a hard economic basis the US is not um the most economically competitive
25:52
Nation but because it links the oil with dollar it's able to restore a certain Financial Supremacy with which renews
25:59
the dependency of the south on the United States but it also subjugates its allies uh underneath it once again which
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is of course as we've discussed I think when I've been on the program before uh one of the key objectives of of the war in Ukraine right is to continually uh
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subjugate its European allies underneath it so Europe doesn't look to establish relations with Russia and China that
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might lead to a multi-polar world rather than a world dominated by us imperialism so I think that's the key element of the
26:27
dollar relationship it's been fundamental to us hegemony and imperialism and it's been projected and
26:33
maintained through obviously Saudi Arabia turkey and Israel in the region right so these are the proxy forces
26:40
through which the United States projects power and I think again to return to the previous question one reason why the US
26:48
is making such a stand right now in so aggressively backing this genocide is
26:53
because the you know the Iran Saudi dant that happened last year the ending of the Yemen War right and you know China
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is constantly working with others Russia Iran or whoever to think about an alternative currency system that can um
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weaken the US ability to dominate the world economy through the dollar right so the Iran Saudi relationship opens up
27:16
a different uh Horizon for the region right and and I think that's one reason
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why you're seeing the us trying to push a normalization between Saudi Arabia and Israel and trying to really Shore up
27:28
Israel at this moment in which it is being challenged in a way it hasn't before oh wow I mean when you when you
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say it all like that it becomes so clear who the actual enemy is um and it's a
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big one it's a big one and it's important to to express that when we talk about the colonization of Palestine
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and then I want to go back to again because I feel like this point has been made but can you kind of like speak to
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the centrality of the colonization of Palestine to everything you just said
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because I want to just emphasize that as much as possible because a lot of people don't recognize necessarily the
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connection between controlling this area when it comes to the US domination of
28:11
the entire region and everything you just talked about um right so I mean I think the the
28:17
you know we know that the what what is the famous quote that uh you know Joe Biden actually said in the 1980s right
28:24
if there wasn't an isra in Israel yeah we would have to create one right so and
28:29
I I if I'm I may be mistaken but I don't think it is maybe Biden who said that but there's been you know characterizations of Israel as this
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giant aircraft carrier for the United States right this this massive uh store of basically Us weapons and ability to
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project military power throughout the region right so now we know for example in the in the proxy war in Syria that
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that that the Zionist State played a key role in in in backing uh these the those
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forces that were were working with the US to smash the Syrian State and to and
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to basically undermine the access of resistance in that way right so there's a concrete way through which I think um
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Israel does act as a proxy force in the region that there's a way in which through the US Saudi Israel uh I think
29:17
turkey relationship you know there's a there's a way in which it kind of enables and allows for this projection
29:24
of military power via VIA Israel um and it it enables I think the the Saudi us
29:31
relationship to be stabilized as well which is why I think they're pushing for normalization so I think at the basic
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point though imagine if you don't have an Israel in the region like just imagine like as a thinking says imagine
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you rem remove remove Israel from the region with a liberated Palestine right like a historic Palestine becomes
29:49
liberated and you don't have that can we imagine you at the United States maintaining an imperialist power in the
29:54
same way when we're already seeing for example Saudi Arabia talking uh to Iran
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via China now this is not to say the Saudis are some revolutionary Force they're very opportunistic but there is a way in which you can see if you remove
30:08
uh Zionism as a proxy in the region it would change the equation for the local client states that the us upholds
30:14
otherwise so I think very much there has to be an emphasis that the liberation of Palestine is key it's actually at the
30:20
center of the struggle against us imperialism which has incredible obviously bearings for the entire Global
30:26
South for much of the states that are on the periphery right if the The Liberation of Palestine weakens and or
30:33
eliminates the US hold over the region this will open up developmental space for the entire I think Global sou so
30:39
it's I think anti-imperialists really need to key in on the centrality of the Palestinian struggle and then you know I want to
30:46
just this is I've actually talked to Ali Cadre on the show about this who I know is someone who work that you've read uh
30:53
in full uh and he speaks to this very well uh and I want to ask you about it when it comes to us imperialism in the
30:59
region I mean we've talked about the dollar hemony the oil the resources but we know what else does the US get out of
31:07
the Middle East because when we think about Africa or Latin America you know there are a lot more there's a bit more
31:12
diversity of resources I would say that you have in a place like the Middle East or West Asia same thing but some people
31:19
don't know that when we say West Asia we mean Middle East um but I mean we don't the the the the kind of when we think
31:26
about like Africa and Latin America there's other things there's like copper and coffee and you know Cobalt and and
31:31
just so much uh whereas in the Middle East it's just oil but I think it's even
31:36
Beyond oil isn't it I mean yes the Middle East produces oil but also it almost seems as though when it comes to
31:42
the Middle East specifically War has become a resource in and of itself um in
31:48
a way where like all of these Us weapons and you know Global North companies that
31:53
sell weapons make a killing off of selling weapons to be used to destroy the Middle East and so I'm just curious
32:00
if you can speak to that aspect of imperialism in the region yeah so that's that's very important and I I what I
32:06
would what I would maybe Begin by emphasizing is um if I if I can be allowed to to retreat into theory for a
32:13
moment please on show always so there's you know in the history of marxist
32:18
theorizations of imperialism right there's there's a dominant I think um or a more conventional let's say uh
32:26
approach you know that that's coming out of or let's say dominant that's coming out of Lenin and others that will emphasize that when capitalism hits a
32:33
profitability crisis in the coure right so whether it's the United States or uh European countries if if once their
32:39
firms hit a crisis of profitability where there's a market saturation or the capital labor relationship in a core
32:45
only allows uh you cannot reinvest profits anymore to generate even further
32:50
profits the capitalism will turn to will intensify imperialism but will also turn to financialization which we talked
32:56
about with the oil dollar Rel relationship right this was the financialization of the US economy this was the financialization of the world
33:02
economy through which in the absence of being able to renew and generate further profits in the real economy right
33:08
because of declining competitiveness for the us but also Rising competitiveness elsewhere the contradictions of capitalism reaching a limit of
33:15
profitability there's a turn to finance right but there is a second road which is what you're pointing to that Rosa
33:22
Luxenberg actually first pointed to as far as I'm aware and I think Ali kadri's work uh and I I think Ali also has um
33:29
Ali Kadri has recently co-authored a piece with somebody who's been on your program recently Mato capaso um a couple
33:36
of uh yeah they wrote a very important shout out to Mato if you're watching and if you're not what the hell are you
33:41
doing shout out shout out shout out to shout out to Conrad Conrad Mato for sure Mato yeah yeah brilliant brilliant
33:48
analysis always but yes so also I had co-written a piece with um with Ali Kadri on the specific theme so I know
33:54
they have engaged Luxembourg uh some but you know in in her her book I think the accumulation of capital she has an
34:00
entire chapter there on militarism as a province of accumulation which is getting at exactly what you're
34:06
saying she's looking at how War doesn't simply become a means to grabbing resources that war is the end in itself
34:12
that when you hit a profitability crisis right when the contradictions of the capital labor relation cannot be
34:19
overcome when the contradictions of interfirm competition of inter imperialist competition or whatnot
34:25
cannot be overcome turning to war actually becomes a way in which accumulation can be renewed within the
34:31
sphere of War itself right because you can generate um a kind of social buyin
34:38
by All Peoples from working classes to to the capitalist Class A total um
34:43
Collective social effort is bought into a war- making project uh that enables
34:50
massive amounts of profits to be regenerated right so War becomes an escape from the crisis of profitability
34:55
as well uh for Luxembourg and I think this is something that um you know uh
35:01
kadri's work with with with Mato has emphasized and I think so it becomes a it becomes a means of profit not just to
35:08
grab copper not just to grab oil but to actually make a profit because you can't make profits elsewhere and we know that
35:13
since the 1970s not only has the US economy financialized right that it has essentially become really centered
35:20
whatever productive basis there is to the US economy is tied with the military industry right so there has been both a
35:25
financialization and a militarization of us capital accumulation since the 1970s
35:30
and it is more broad amongst Western capitalist countries themselves right and this is particularly becoming sharp
35:37
as China and other contending States further intensify the crisis of their
35:43
competitive basis in the global economy right so I think that militarized sphere of accumulation has been key as well to
35:51
the financial spere since the 1970s and the West Asian region the Middle Eastern region has been a key site as Kadri work
35:58
has shown through which war has become a key profit making Arena um and now Kadri
36:04
will also emphasize there that part of the objective of war is to smash these
36:10
societies as well right so you smash the capacity of the Libyan or Syrian states
36:17
to engage in some form of non-market-based social reproduction of its societies which ends up
36:23
actually uh imposing levels of Destruction which release forms of surplus labor that can have the
36:30
impact of depressing labor costs more generally across the world which can again enhance profits right so I think
36:36
most definitely it's important that we keep upfront and Center that uh these wars whether it's the war in Iraq in
36:43
Libya in Syria in Ukraine that there is a fundamental structural impetus coming
36:48
out of the US economy to continue to pump and push for war making as an arena
36:54
of profit making um and the West Asian region has been key that so I I would just say in addition to the
36:59
financialization component we talked about militarization has been key uh to the maintenance reproduction of us
37:07
capitalist accumulation since the 1970s in particular wow that's like a really
37:13
it kind of blows my mind when you put it all like that that war is a resource War has become a resource because of the
37:19
profitability of it and this disgusting war machine that uh has become so
37:25
foundational to the West's ability to continue to profit off of the world um I
37:32
want to move on to uh a a couple other Regional issues that are obviously very
37:38
much related to the genocide in Gaza I want to talk about Iran and the resistance aess and I don't know if you
37:43
saw but I recently was able to go on pier Morgan um see that well done you
37:50
did awesome thank you thank you it was very very stressful by the way it was a very stressful experience so I'm I'm
37:55
happy with uh that it turned out in a way where you know it was at least some sort of like cathartic experience for
38:01
people to watch these zionists get yelled at by me but it genocide apologist that was good genocide
38:07
apologist exactly these genocide apologists but there was this one Israeli American woman called Emily um
38:15
and she you might remember that she made this claim and she made it repeatedly uh seriously sitting through
38:22
this was like it was like a form of torture to have to just listen to these people's insane talking points but she
38:27
kept saying that Iran is a colonizer Iran she was trying to use the words colonizer and imperialist she tried to say that I don't know what they mean and
38:34
she does and that it's actually Iran that's colonizing Lebanon and it's an imperialist power in the region and I
38:40
mean she sounded insane but there are people who who believe this because it's said so often about Iran like Iran is
38:47
like a or there's this term like sub-imperialism um that some sort of like a certain strain of of people in
38:53
the like left sphere will use when referring to a country like Iran but you know Israel's supporters do like to like
38:59
project you know Israel's colonialism and imperialism onto Iran and say it's Iran that's imperialist it's Iran that's
39:05
colonizing Lebanon but you know I want to emphasize bickram and you know this as an academic that these words have
39:12
actual meanings like imperialism and colonialism have a def they both have a definition so can you explain to our
39:20
viewers why Iran does not qualify as an imperialist let alone colonial power
39:28
yeah absolutely I think the you know the to understand say colonialism and imperialism right it's very clearly
39:34
these are these are two um and just I think maybe for your your viewers and listeners um I recently gave a lecture
39:41
at Middle East critique where I I think I go into this in a lot more detail like it's
39:46
a very long kind of lecture where if if people want some more longer definitions but very briefly you know like
39:52
colonialism and imperialism is is a is a is a set of relationships through which either colonizing power or an imperial
39:58
power is going to um organize and dominate the colonized Society the
40:03
subjugated Society in a way that denies sovereignty to those people in order to transfer resources and surplus value
40:10
from uh the colonized imperially subjugated Zone into the colonizer country or into the Imperial core right
40:17
so that's I think very key it's not enough to say that if one country has a relationship with another through which
40:23
they are maybe engaged in some forms of relations of power or they're engaged in
40:29
some forms of military collaboration or cooperation or engaged in a conflict in
40:34
a neighboring country that that automatically qualifies as colonialism and imperialism that is a very simplistic rendering right I think one
40:41
thing that I I often emphasize is like look to see does the relationship between these two countries does it
40:47
generate relations of development and underdevelopment does it generate relations through which say Iran's
40:54
presence somewhere is actively underdeveloping that country is acely de developing and destroying the productive
41:00
basis of that country in order to transfer wealth from that country to Iran where can you find that you can't
41:06
find that anywhere right so I think that that definition of surplus value transfer of a militarized or economic
41:14
basis to a denial of sovereignty that is done to transfer wealth from periphery to core from colonize to colonizer we
41:21
can't see that with the case of Iran and what I will further emphasize is that the Iranian Revolution in 1979 is itself
41:27
response to the colonization of Iran to the Imperial subjugation of Iran the neocolonial subjugation of Iran Iran was
41:34
the case par excellence in the 20th century uh of neocolonial subjugation and you know the relations we were
41:40
talking about over us imperialism being premised upon domination over the flow
41:45
of oil into and out of the region you know the coup that happens in Iran in 1953 is a very key part of that project
41:51
and the Iranian Revolution in 1979 why does it become so threatening to us imperialism is because in my view it is
41:59
actually a direct challenge to that 1974 us Saudi relationship because the Iranian Revolution does not simp it
42:04
stands with Palestinians from its Inception it's never abandoned the Palestinian cause it's been given opportunities to abandon it if the
42:10
Iranians abandon Palestine you can you can bet in one day they would be integrated into the region right that
42:16
that all of this discourse around rights and democracy and all this stuff this is not anything that has ever been a
42:21
concern we know this to the West so if they would have abandoned Palestine and accepted us ofj you know Iran could be
42:28
integrated into the region by the US in a day those opportunities have been there but from the Iranian Revolution
42:35
that you can see the Iranian reev and shout out to my haters you know there's a lot of zionists who always like oh my gosh he um he said the Iranian
42:42
Revolution is premised upon expelling the us from the region like wow that's a big controversial claim to rake but just
42:48
to restate Point Revolution says as much too exactly even like even Steven Walt
42:54
or like these these boring academics yeah yeah yeah I mean all these boring academics have made this point right but
43:00
so the Iranian Revolution is itself you know it centers on a rejection in opposition to Zionism but also the
43:06
expulsion of us imperialism from the region understanding that there's no sovereignty to be had fully for Iranians
43:12
or any people in the region while they are still there so you if you look at the history of Iran since
43:19
1979 whether one wants to be critical or supportive of any actions what is very clear is the Iranian position is often
43:27
informed in the immediate sense by its Direct Security imperatives in its border regions right like that and
43:33
that's something you can apply also to China and Russia right you can see the way in which those States operate on a
43:38
very different logic through which they're not going to dominate and deny sovereignty in order to transfer Surplus
43:44
wealth from a periphery to a core they're largely informed by uh security
43:49
imperatives that are security imperatives in response to the actual imperialist power in these regions which
43:54
is the United States right so how does Iran operate in Iraq well the Iranian
44:00
presence in Iraq is going to be of a such to ensure that the United States can't go through Iraq and get to the
44:05
doorstep of Iran because we know that the next step is always regime change in Iran now that's a very different logic
44:12
than calling it an imperial or colonizing Power number one but number two Iran has been a very vital force to
44:21
um different resistance forces in the region now that that again that's something that is a fact of the matter
44:27
right like you cannot understand I think amal's work is very important in saying that hisbah is not a proxy of Iran it's
44:34
not a pawn of Iran these are allies in an axis but Iran has been a core part of
44:39
that axis right like it has been a core part of just as Iran learned from North Korea how to develop an endogenous
44:47
weapons production capacity they have also helped to diffuse that knowledge across the region so when you understand
44:54
Yemen or his anah or his how they've stood up as such Sovereign forces that
45:00
have endogenous Force capacity you know Iran is a key part of that question right so it has been key to the
45:07
challenge to us imperialism in the region is certainly not operating according to the Logics of imperialism
45:13
and colonialism uh by any means I think that's that's important uh to emphasize which doesn't again that doesn't mean
45:20
that any state doesn't have uh degrees of social discontent that people can analyze none of that does away with that
45:27
but it's to be very clear as to what is and is not happening and also to be clear of why Iran is targeted right Iran
45:34
is targeted for the specific reason of how it challenges uh us imperialism in
45:39
the region right and then to speak to you know other um arms of the resistance
45:45
axis I wanted to ask you to comment on the fact that we have groups like like his Bala and Hamas which are islamist
45:52
groups um Iran itself is a relig religious country it's it has an had an
45:57
Islamic it's called like it's it had its Islamic revolution um so obviously there's a religious flavor to these uh
46:04
movements and in the case of Iran this country can you explain why despite all
46:09
all of that religious character these are in fact Anti-Imperialist forces and that that's to say you know I'm not sitting here saying that they're like
46:16
necessarily leftist forces I'm I'm not calling them leftist forces they certainly have like socially
46:21
conservative views and they're not necessarily all exactly the same like there's a lot of
46:27
internal ideals that hasbalah or Hamas might espouse that I would disagree with
46:32
because I myself am not a religious person um that said these are still
46:39
Anti-Imperialist forces because again imperialism has a definition so can you explain the meaning behind that what I
46:45
why are they Anti-Imperialist forces so I think to be they are definitely Anti-Imperialist forces to be
46:52
Anti-Imperialist and I think um you know you can go to say Hass n's I think I I
46:57
caught a speech that he gave this is long back I don't know I just caught it in passing but it definitely exists
47:03
because I um and I often find nah to be one of the sharpest geopolitical analysts of our times actually like you
47:09
know when the 2006 War happens and there's this moment of Revelation maybe it had occurred to the hisbah leadership
47:17
before that is actually us imperialism that is the primary contradiction and oppressive Force right that that that
47:24
the head of the snake as head of the snake right yes so that became definitely the the the the line and a
47:29
clear sharp understanding so what does it mean to be Anti-Imperialist right what it means to be Anti-Imperialist is
47:35
to challenge the basis of imperialism to challenge the basis through which imperialism denies sovereignty to a
47:41
people uh whether in a national context or in a regional context right so very
47:46
clearly both hisbah and Hamas have constructed a force capacity through
47:53
which to do that right now that's why they are categorized as teror organizations by the United States the
47:59
United States is not going to uh uh categorize any organization that's not challenging us imperialism that's that's
48:06
actually the qualifying condition right like if you're challenging the basis of us imperialist power you will be
48:11
categorized as a terrorist organization if you enjoyed this episode and want to hear the rest you can access it by
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