On The Freedom Side LIVE, Thursday, 8/01 at 3pm ET/12pm PT, Eugene and Rania are joined by special guests:
Ghadi Francis - Israel assassinated two leaders of the Axis of Resistance within hours of each other, in its most explosive provocation for regional war yet. Israel bombed Beirut, killing top Hezbollah commander Fuad Shukr, then struck Hamas political bureau leader Ismail Haniyeh in Tehran – both escalating with Iran and killing the individual Israel was negotiating with for a ceasefire in one dangerous blow. Influential Beirut-based journalist Ghadi Francis considers the serious consequences to come after the US and Israel have set the region aflame.
Vijay Prashad - After Nicolás Maduro was re-elected President of Venezuela with 51.2% of the vote, the Venezuelan right-wing launched violent attacks to discredit the election. Maduro supporters mobilized to defeat what they say is a concerted US-backed coup attempt. Vijay Prashad, Executive Director of the Tricontinental Institute and an international observer of the elections, joins the show to describe what he witnessed.
David Hundeyin - Nigeria erupted in protests this week against the anti-labor policies of the Tinubu administration and soaring inflation that is crippling Nigerians. Investigative journalist and author David Hundeyin joins the show to discuss the demands behind the #EndBadGovernance protests.
Suchitra Vijayan - In the ten years Narenda Modi and the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) has held power, Modi has presided over an evisceration of democratic rights in India. Modi has intensified efforts to crush dissent by targeting anyone who questions his government. Suchitra Vijayan, author of How Long Can the Moon Be Caged? Voices of Indian Political Prisoners joins the show to analyze the Modi administration and the systematic silencing of critical voices central to his continued grip on power.
Sean Blackmon- Sonya Massey’s family demands justice after police shot Massey in the face in a brutal murder caught on bodycam. Sonia Massey, a Black woman in Illinois who called police for assistance with a potential intruder, is one of over 700 people killed by police this year, making 2024 one of the deadliest years for police killings since 2013. Sean Blackmon, host of Darker Than Blue LIVE on WPFW 89.3 FM, places the killing of Sonya Massey in the broader context of racist police killings that continue unabated four years after George Floyd.
Transcript
0:00
e
0:32
retion Revolution knows no compromise Revolution overturns and destroys
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everything that get in it [Music]
0:53
way you are watching breakthrough news and this is the freedom side I am one of
1:00
of your Intrepid co-host Eugene per year and here alongside my colleague R Kik R
1:07
is always good to be back alongside you it's great to be back alongside you
1:12
Eugene such a great show we have today was a great show it is a great show that we have I don't know why I said was well
1:19
we had a great show past you know three years we've been doing this show or whatever so nonetheless it was a great
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show whenever that was but it is a great show coming up for you here today uh big shout out to everyone who is
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joining us and for those of you who are joining us on YouTube great opportunity now for you to go ahead and hit the
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Subscribe button then hit the Bell so that you can get the alerts for the things that you subscribe to so you can
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get easy access to all the Fantastic content that we have here on breakthrough news including dispatches
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with r Kik and for those of you who are watching us here this evening on Free
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Speech TV big shout out to you you don't have to do anything but keep watching and keep supporting Free Speech TV and
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shout out to the whole fstv team for allowing us to appear to you uh via
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their fantastic platform R are there other elements you would like to bring
2:13
in for our audience here as we start the show yes I want to remind everybody
2:20
who's watching to first and foremost smash that like button it helps boost Us in the algorithm because we're not CNN
2:26
oh wow okay what's going on Matt what what was that what was that smash why did you shout out Matt it's
2:33
not even Matt oh it's oh John wow I'm so sorry I forgot it's John John's okay I
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mean shout out to Matt in general but yeah shout out to Matt but I I bet John appreciated the fact that I just blamed
2:45
Matt for something he did but he ultimately Got It smash that like button there it is there it is um
2:54
one of these days we're not going to Fumble the beginning I can't wait for that day to come but today is not that day
3:00
but back to where I was going you say we but hey you did it too Eugene don't put
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this just on me and John it was a team it was a team fumble it was a team
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fumble way to look at it you know listen listen if you want us to not fumble the
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beginning you should become a supporter of breakthrough news go to
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patreon.com breakthrough news and become a member of breakthrough news but in all seriousness we are living in an era of
3:29
just con it lies a tsunami of propaganda I just experienced it in Venezuela while on the ground watching One reality take
3:37
place the real one and then watching a weird distorted version of it come out at the New York Times and CNN and all
3:43
these other mainstream corporate media Outlets that we're going to talk to talk about on the show today um we've watched
3:49
them lie about Gaza and Lebanon and the Middle East and general as Israel
3:54
carries out a genocide that it's trying to spread and escalate uh and here at breakthrough news we tell the truth about that
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which is why you should become a member at patreon.com breakthrough news help us grow help us Thrive so we can keep
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bringing you the reality that's happening on the ground from the Middle East to Latin America and Beyond uh you
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can also donate in the live chat and you can go to breakr news.org for onetime
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donations excellent well that was very smooth good execution you you scooped up the fumble and you ran with it that's an
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American football reference there for those who who don't know uh hi high
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school students getting ready to start your high school football practice shout out to you don't fumble the ball when you're out there in two a days but yes
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that is correct we could absolutely use your support big shout out by the way to all of our existing patrons uh
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everything you've done so far has been truly Monumental uh in allowing us to to get to an even higher level and big
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shout out to all our viewers even you know we know it's tough times for those who aren't able to become uh Financial
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supporters everything you do to spread the word about what we have going on here uh at breakthrough news is also
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greatly appreciated so got a lot for you here on the show as we always do we'll be talking Middle East we'll be talking
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about Africa we'll be talking about Venezuela we'll be talking about political prisoners in India we'll be talking about police terrorism here in
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the United States and we'll end up with a little commentary from ra and myself about several of the important events uh
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that are going on around the world and the implications from them so however you choose to do so now would be a great
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time to let folks know that we are here on uh the freedom side whether you want
5:28
to shout it out Knock on a door air horn carrier pigeon whatever seems right let
5:34
them know because we want whoever is following you to be following us as we get started here on the freedom side on
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August 1st 2024 so we want to I think go ahead R
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and get right into it uh and obviously one of the biggest issues that is facing
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the globe right now that everyone is talking about is the possibility of a continued escalation by Israel uh into
6:01
Lebanon the possibility that they may invade or and you know do various other things in order to increase the level of
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violence they are imposing on the people of Lebanon and we are very very honored
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to be joined here on the show as we move forward by Gotti Francis who's a war correspondent based in Lebanon Gotti
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thank you so much for being with us thank you for having me Eugene such a pleasure to be in the middle between you
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and R well believe me it is also our pleasure to have you here with us and I
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I guess you know just to start here I mean it really I I don't want to have too many projections because you never
6:38
know exactly what's happening but it really does feel that Israel you know sort of step by step is is is is laying
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the basis to keep increasing almost terroristic like activity on Lebanon and
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from your perspective I mean I wonder how you uh are are interpreting this in terms of what their goals may be and if
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you think it's a leading to something further or really just trying to save face in the midst of of what Hezbollah
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has been able to do in in defense and in relationship to what's happening in
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Gaza well first of all Eugene um when someone crazy is having a tantrum you
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don't really look at what what are they trying to do uh this is a genocidal
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ethnic uh cleansing aparte State occupation that has been uh carry in out
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a massacre a televised genocide for the past 9 months so they're not really very
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sane when we're looking at the at the situation here I'm always feeling better
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and more secure when the ball is in the hands of the resistance like it is right now because it has been a Tit for Tat
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exchange for the past N9 months especially on the Lebanese front a target for a target a kill for a kill a
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base for a base and the and the resistance has been able to play this uh
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to orchestrate this kind of deterrence and retaliation in a way that would
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always preserve and protect the Lebanese infrastructure and the the complex
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political situation of Lebanon does not really help in opening a full-blown War as well so right now after the
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assassination of fuad shukur they are waiting for hezbollah's
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retaliation and when the Israelis are waiting for the retaliation because I trust the wisdom of hisbah and their
8:30
retaliation and their strikes we feel at ease because we know that they will have
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it calculated in a way when you ask me why the Israelis are doing that are they trying really to to collect some WIS or
8:43
to uh to save face I think yes I think they're trying especially bamin
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Netanyahu is trying like tactical wins which really are not wins if you go if you if you go to dissect these uh events
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I mean is is not the first he's just another Hamas leader that has been
9:03
assassinated his predecessors were all assassinated when you look at fuk
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inah his his colleagues and fellows have been assassinated in the same manner the
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leaders of the resistance are made for martyrdom they calculate this martyrdom
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they put it in front of their eyes their families know it their lifestyles are always governed in a way where this is a
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day a possibility in their lives so when you look at fad shukur you say he lived 40
9:35
years after the Israelis were trying to kill him 40 years every day and night the Israelis were trying to kill this
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man that was able to um expand the Warfare technology for the resistance to
9:49
expand missiles and uh ways in fighting the Israelis for years and years he was
9:56
there in every fight he's been in the uh leadership of the AL AA flood operations
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and also the operations before so this is not really a win for Israel these people are Martyrs in the
10:10
waiting it's actually putting the ball once again in the hands uh or in the
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control of the resistance axis they can choose how when and what uh kind of
10:24
retaliation to carry on and and I think the coming days will show the world uh
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how wise when you say non-state actors and some of the media calls them militias and you look at how wise and
10:39
how much they are caring for the civilian life and the civilian cost and the way they are governing their
10:45
retaliatory strikes I mean these non-state actors that are called militias and are called the resistance
10:52
access in this part of the world have really proven to be more respectable
10:57
more they they respect the international law although they are occupied and they have every right to do everything they
11:04
want but they play more reasonably and more wisely and strongly and Faithfully
11:11
than the colonizing occupation Apper tide
11:16
regime RI uh you know I'm sure you saw that Hassan estrellaa spoke today and he
11:22
made a point that you just touched on about the fact that the Israelis continue to assassinate resistance
11:28
leaders and it doesn't change anything in fact it makes these organizations more powerful and he also made the point
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he said that um we have entered a new stage of this War uh where before a lot
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of these fronts whether Lebanon or Yemen or Iraq were supportive fronts for Gaza
11:44
but now he called them battlefronts in their own right uh because especially because the Israelis are directly
11:50
Crossing red lines they've been targeting Lebanon they have they actually targeted Yemen they bombed Yemen last week I believe it was um and
11:58
we're now in a new dangerous phase I'm just curious you know as somebody you've been to Iraq you've covered Yemen you've
12:05
been to Yemen you've been to the tunnels of Gaza you have obviously been all across Lebanon you've been all across
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Syria when you've when we watch this this battle that's played out from October till now do you see this as a
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new phase in this in this war and I'm talking here about Beyond
12:26
Palestine well and also Iran I've been to Iran being all in all these countries
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I think from the beginning regardless of the nomenclature or the designation of the war the israelies and the Americans
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regard all these entities as one and they they uh they impose sanctions they
12:46
demonize them they they uh character assassinate their politicians and their
12:52
leaders and they pay billions of dollars to fight them every time there is any kind of uh ctions whether it's
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presidential or parliamentary I'm talking about Iraq Lebanon and all these countries so I think the the new era
13:08
that s nasah has announced when these are all battlefields it has been like that but it hasn't been really declared
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as such in the in the past and probably it's also because of the wisdom of the
13:21
resistance axis and how they're playing out this war but now the Israelis and the Americans they have called them
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battlefields they have touched the uh the beasts you know and um this is why
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in terms of the historical uh events and days that we are living we are
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witnessing the end of Israel I mean whether you see that or not in the future our grandkids will look at these
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times as the last days of Israel because you cannot carry on a massacre and televise it and post it on Tik Tok and
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get away with it it's not going to happen we will always know that one of the main reasons why Israel is ending is
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that all of the Levant all of suraka all of Greater Syria all the people have
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been antagonized and killed enough and slaughtered enough to gain one um faith
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in fighting this oppression I really think we are going to witness a new uh
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season of this war but I don't think it's going to be a full-blown operation not in Lebanon not in Iraq not in any of
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and by the way R I've been you've been covering these this uh region for the
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past few years as well and you know just like I know if it's assassinations it hadn't stopped before they assassinated
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people before October 7 I mean leaders and so on whether it's Iranians Lebanese Palestinians in Syria and Lebanon and
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Iran okay in Iraq as well the Americans have been doing this on and off for the
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past decade or more Syria as well so when they talk about an escalation I
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mean there wasn't peace here it's just your way of covering it was different do we really forget what they did in Iraq
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do you really forget who they assassinated in Bagdad International Airport there was no October 7 but they
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did something very similar to what they did to is I mean in terms of the politics and the policy this war has
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been going on in this region for 76 years plus the ways and the shapes and
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the manifestations of the war differ and alter uh with the times but um
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uh this only makes us feel more comfortable and more optimistic about the future because it's the wish it has
15:36
been a wish for the Palestinians to see the Iraqis and the syrians and the Lebanese and the yemenis involved in
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their struggle had that been the case since 1948 Palestine would have been
15:47
liberated long time ago you know I think one of the factors that is important I think especially for
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people watching in the United States about how this is portrayed especially sort of the various resistance since France is and you know cuz you read the
16:01
American Media it's like Lebanon has been hijacked by Hezbollah Gaza has been hijacked by Hamas and all the people
16:08
really would reject these organizations if they weren't you know funded by the evil Iranian you know terrorist regime
16:14
so I was hoping you could also talk a little bit about that aspect is you know how the people of Lebanon and and in
16:19
these other places feel about the resistance forces because you know maybe it it seems obvious to some people but
16:25
it's obviously going to be impossible to sustain yourself if you don't have popular support I think it is time for the
16:32
American media and the American politicians to stop saying lies and believing them because even the American
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people do not believe them anymore I mean you can say this lie you can say the same lie a million years
16:44
it's not going to change hisbah is a part of the parliament how could they hijack if they
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have the most voted uh parliamentary members ever in the history of Lebanon
16:55
50,000 plus Muhammad rad got they have their supporters their supporters are
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Lebanese their Fighters and their Martyrs are Lebanese you cannot call white black or blue green and just
17:08
believe it and and it's very obvious that hisbah is a part of the Lebanese social structure it is very obvious that
17:15
this is part of the political structure and if they do not acknowledge the reality and they always think of them as
17:22
aliens who hijack they will never be able to fight them they will never be able to change the policies or to make
17:28
them loved among their people if you do not really know your enemy very well you
17:33
will never be able to fight them one of their biggest failures when I'm speaking about the anti-is buah uh uh States and
17:43
actors and people and politicians one of their biggest failures comes from them
17:48
denying the facts they don't want to see the fact whether you say I mean even the Israelis one of their ministers was on
17:54
TV saying oh they have kusia I mean Rana made me listen to that on on the dispatches earlier and he's saying oh
18:02
they have kusas what can they do he can say we only have kusas all day all night but the missiles are getting there their
18:09
headquarters are being evacuated our Drone footage is getting out there in the in the whole wide world so the lies
18:16
do not work anymore hisbah is a part of the Lebanese structure and before hisbah
18:23
was born there was another resistance armed resistance group that was a part of the Lebanese structure the action
18:30
here that started these all of these uh non-state actors is and they were all
18:36
legalized by their people and loved and revered by their people because they emerged as their protectors they were
18:43
protecting them from the ongoing Slaughter that has started with the hagana 1948 and haven't stopped with the
18:50
Neo haanas and the neo-nazis in 2024 we are seeing what they are doing so this
18:55
has been ongoing for all this period of time the people in Lebanon the people in Palestine any oppressed or occupied
19:02
people would rever their resistance groups as protectors right now even the
19:07
people who are against hisbah right now if Beirut is under attack and hisbah is actually fighting
19:14
back and protecting Lebanon every single Lebanese person will be praying for them because our well-being is part of their
19:23
uh uh well-being as well so American Media and mainstream media and
19:29
politicians keep telling you these things keep telling you that all Islams are terrorists and these are Islamic
19:35
group but I mean you are more aware than that you have seen how they uh
19:41
they uh how they treat uh islamophobic who killed children in the American uh
19:49
Community uh I think the terrorism the real terrorism today is the bias and is
19:55
the absence of accountability towards these crimes that are happening some of them we're not even knowing about so the
20:03
era of listening to what the American mainstream media is saying I think it's done I think all the world nobody
20:08
believes them anymore not even the American people and the American Youth as as we could see from the college
20:15
encampments I mean I think the truth is is out there and they cannot really uh
20:21
serve in denying facts anymore yeah it's really incredible
20:26
there's just one last thing I wanted to touch on before we let you go here and that's the fact speaking of Lies um I
20:32
noticed that after you know I wasn't I wasn't in Lebanon when the when the the
20:37
killings of those uh children on the soccer field in the occupied Golan Heights took place and hasbalah
20:44
vehemently uh denied that they were involved in it the Israelis of course blamed Hezbollah Hezbollah said this was
20:50
no this was like an errant uh Iron Dome missile I'm just curious what was the
20:55
sentiment in Lebanon about that in terms of how the media covered it and how people were viewing it did anybody buy
21:01
Israel side of the story or was everybody just pretty certain it was likely the
21:07
Israelis I will tell you it took us split seconds me and uh our friend when
21:13
we read the news we looked at each other and hisbah doesn't kill civilians it took Split Second we look
21:19
at each other say we all know hisbah doesn't kill civilians but then the the
21:25
coming minute we all know that Golan is Syrian we all know that the Israelis Arabs even the Israeli Arabs I mean
21:31
there's no way that any sane mind could believe that lie and they want to retaliate for Dy
21:38
kids they really like them so much then why did they deny them any papers today do does anyone know how the
21:47
how's the livelihood of the the people in M Sham in occupied Goan Heights does anybody know before they go and carry
21:54
the the the Israeli CLA these are not is isi kids these are Syrian people who
22:01
Deni Israeli papers who are paying for it right now they are lost and stranded in the middle of nowhere left uh there's
22:09
there's Syrian government that cannot access them very well and there's the occupation and even if you really had
22:15
some question and you don't want to believe all of that you can look at what the people did when Benjamin Netanyahu
22:21
tried to visit them and try to pay condolences they spoke
22:28
you know they kicked him out they did indeed and also basil
22:33
smartr so it does say a lot and certainly uh we really appreciate the opportunity Gotti for you to join us
22:39
here and help us sort through all of this I know you're very busy so thank you for giving us some of your time here
22:44
in the freedom side thank you for having me
22:49
guys R Well's excellent I encourage anybody
22:55
who is for whatever reason not following her to follow her on Twitter on Instagram uh she's always doing
23:02
excellent interviews and her analysis is so on point um and important she's such an important voice uh coming out of of
23:09
the Middle East um and I have had her on dispatches twice since October uh 7th so
23:16
I encourage you to go check out those episodes as well yeah 100% 100% great episodes both times Well we want to turn
23:23
our attention now to the West African nation of Nigeria for those who have not been seeing uh wave of protest has swept
23:30
Nigeria today perhaps a wave of More protest over the coming days under the hash inad governance and also Revolution
23:38
now so a lot happening in Nigeria and we are very very honored to have here on the show to talk about this uh by David
23:45
hundan who's a Nigerian investigative journalist and author David thank you so much for being with
23:51
us thank you for having me well it's uh great to have you here and and let me just start maybe with some framing uh
23:58
perhaps people saw some photos of protests coming out but you know what are sort of the proximate issues uh that
24:04
have ignited this protest wave there in Nigeria so um there are multiple issues
24:10
and there's sort of multiple subgroups that have sort of coist into a bigger protest movement so but the basic on the
24:17
line issue that seems to unify everyone is the understanding that um Nigeria is
24:23
going through an unprecedent an unprecedented crisis of of of bad
24:28
economics basically to to put it in in context as at 2014 10 years ago Nigeria
24:35
was rated as Africa's largest economy uh with a GDP of about $510 billion do 10
24:41
years later Nigeria's population has increased but Nigeria's GDP now stands at about $280 billion so Nigeria's GDP
24:49
has effectively halved in 10 years while its population has gone up so Nigeria's per capita income has more than halfed
24:58
in the space of 10 years um already it wasn't it wasn't a particularly wealthy
25:03
country in in per capita terms but now it's it's at disastrous levels to to put
25:08
it in further context of Nigeria's estimated 210 million people about 135
25:15
million are are estimated to be living in multi-dimensional poverty which is
25:20
about 65% of the country's population so to to put that in context there is no there's
25:26
no other African country which has a population of up to 135 million so that
25:32
135 million of Nigerians who are living in multi-dimensional poverty that in itself is a population segment that is
25:38
bigger than any other African country so there is a huge ground swell of public anger to tap from this is then further
25:45
Complicated by the fact that the the new uh government which came into Power last
25:51
year which as you may or may not know it's very much a a us-backed government um has made absolutely no
25:59
attempt whatsoever um as far as it is possible to tell to create any sort of dent in
26:06
this sort of ongoing um economic disaster going on and in fact it is very
26:12
much the case that the the the presidency and the the executive arm of government seems even more determined to
26:19
act as if the good times are rolling so uh one of the stories that has caused a lot of controversy this year has been
26:25
the decision of the president to buy a new presidential jet to put that in perspective the Nigerian presidency
26:31
already has the largest uh largest presidential jet Fleet in Africa has has
26:38
a larger presidential jet Fleet than many European countries bear in mind this is a country with a per cap per
26:43
capita GDP per capital income of roughly $1,500 a year right and at a time when there is a
26:52
huge Public Finance crisis an estimated uh roughly 80 to 87 cents of
26:59
every dollar made by Nigeria is going on debt servicing debt repayments right and at the time of you
27:05
know um austerity measures because as you know Nigeria has also had to approach the IMF and the World Bank
27:11
multiple times and the the the Nigerian Nira that's the currency has roughly
27:17
halved in the space of a year in terms of its value against the US dollar so about a year ago it was roughly about
27:23
$800 narat dollar now it's about ,500 narat dollar and in the space of all of
27:30
this the president announces that his priority is to get a new Airbus private
27:36
jet um the country then spends another 21 billion naira on on the on on on a
27:41
new residence for the vice president who wasn't exactly homeless to begin with so
27:47
it it then becomes clear to the people that it's it almost seems as if the government and the governed are living
27:52
on two different planets because on the ground people are suffering in a very
27:57
very real very very visceral way suffering to the extent that even um
28:03
food like actual nutrition has become a problem um and something like 65% of of
28:10
Nigerian household income now goes on food alone right so that should give you an
28:17
an idea of just how serious this problem is like this is not a like a hypothetical numbers problem this is a
28:24
very real problem people people are literally holding banners saying we are hungry that's not a cute expression of
28:31
of of discontent that's that's a literal statement of fact people are functionally malnourished because of how
28:37
bad the economy is right now and yet you have this sort of great big cavernous
28:42
government which sort of sits at a great height and almost seems as if it lives on a different planet to the rest of the
28:48
country so these are just some of the issues wow I mean it's really important
28:54
to understand all that context given the fact that this is a very close Ally the US this government in Nigeria um and is
29:01
often touted as the way that an African country should be um and I'm just curious when we talk about what's
29:07
happening in Nigeria um what has been has there been I should ask it this way
29:13
has there been any perhaps influence or inspiration taken in what's hap been
29:19
happening in the Sahel over the last year or so with all these different movements um uh pushing out you know and
29:27
and new governments Rising pushing out the French and the Americans and um and basically trying
29:33
to uh trying to impose their own sovereignty on their countries um and
29:39
obviously Nigeria has been used by the US to kind of push back against that but has any of those changes across West
29:46
Africa influenced people's views about what they're able to perhaps do uh in
29:52
their own country of Nigeria absolutely absolutely they have
29:57
so specifically the the coup which happened last year in neria which is
30:02
Nigeria's um immediate Northern neighbor has had a a definite impact because I
30:09
think prior to that cool most Nigerians sort of thought of ner as this sort of
30:14
37th state of Nigeria not a very significant country in the eyes of most Nigerians didn't really understand how
30:20
it was even a strategically important country in geopolitical terms and then it C happened and the flurry of
30:26
international attention that came with it and then more importantly the fact that afterward Nigeria has since become
30:32
Africa's top performing economy in the space of in in in a situation where it
30:37
ordinarily is expected to be in chaos it's doing 11% economic growth which is
30:43
which that's sort of economic growth numbers Nigeria hasn't seen since maybe the 1970s during the during the oil boom
30:49
right so that is then sort of creating a lot of questions and challenging a lot of assumptions because some of the sort
30:56
of successfully promoted assumptions in the Nigerian public space are that um
31:02
democracy um in the sense that it is promoted by the US Embassy basically is
31:08
a is a precondition for economic growth and prosperity well here we have Nigeria
31:13
which on paper is a democracy um has all the paraphenalia of of of a democratic
31:19
state has all the institutions on paper has a Freedom of Information Act has all the bells and whistles even though um
31:27
functionally it's it's you know Nigeria is actually classified as a hybrid authoritarian State not a democracy but
31:33
it's it's it's treated as a democracy especially by its by its foreign allies like the US and people are starting to
31:39
realize that hey um this these assumptions may not actually be true because here look at n who we've never
31:46
really thought of as consequential in any way we've never really thought these guys are going anywhere and all of a sudden they appear to definitely be
31:53
going somewhere you know you simply can't sniff at the fact that this is a a
31:59
a country doing 11% annual economic growth that those numbers are unfathomable to to a
32:06
Nigerian so that definitely has raised some some questions and then almost as
32:11
importantly um the events in Kenya which have happened or are still happening almost almost concurrently have also had
32:17
a very outsized impact because in both uh the cases of ner and Kenya even
32:23
though the manifestations have been different but ultimately it would seem as if the the
32:29
target of the anger has actually been sort of two sides of the same coin so in the case of ner it's been a sort of
32:35
direct response to perceive Colonial um uh interests and activities in the SEL
32:41
region in the case of Kenya it's been a response to the perceive neoc Colonial
32:47
um actions of of the IMF and the fact that this the populations of these countries have been able to so
32:52
successfully so visually and so successfully oppose these things and have actually seen seen some results has
32:59
created a significant um amount of expectation in Nigerian public space that okay so if
33:06
ner this sleepy next door neighbor of ours has been able to do something bear in mind that in in the aftermath of what
33:13
the things that happen in Nigeria as you rightly said Nigeria was used or the attempt was made to use Nigeria as a
33:18
sort of blond Force instrument bludgeon them back into line and that simply didn't work Nigeria imposed some of the
33:25
harshest sanctions possible for for a country to impose on a much economically
33:30
less powerful neighbor Nigeria blockaded niger's borders didn't you know Niger is a bandoff country they didn't have
33:35
access to the Sea they were effectively cut off from global trade Nigeria sh off their electricity which was in violation
33:42
of international law technically Nigeria committed war crimes you know just to sort of bring them back into line and at
33:49
the end of the day all all this was to the net effect of absolutely nothing the Nigerians are basically doing better
33:56
than they were a year ago as far as they're concerned and are doing better than a significant part of of the
34:01
Nigerian population and then the Kenyans were able to do their own sort of very visually successful um uh uh resistance
34:09
action so these factors have sort of very def had a very outsized influence
34:15
on the decision of Nigerians to come out and try to get something
34:20
done you know I think this is a critically important uh Point here touching on the sort of geopolitics of
34:26
it and and I want to you know pick up on a point you made at the very beginning here of sort of this being a us-backed government and I know your own
34:32
investigative reporting during the election was very much at the tip of the Spear of some important factors and when
34:38
it seemed like you correct me if you think I'm wrong here the US government was trying to help conceal certain
34:44
information that would could have had a significant impact on how Nigerians viewed the election and the vote so talk
34:49
if you could maybe about that specifically but just in general you know what the United States is hoping to get out of backing the current uh
34:57
government of Mr Chu so um for those who may not be aware
35:03
the current president of Nigeria who came to power last year in the sort of heavily disputed election that's uh the
35:10
president of abah Ahmed ubu used to be resident in the US and um used to be a a
35:17
drug trafficker in in the city of of Chicago between the he was active between the 1980s and early '90s and he
35:25
was actually identified as a drug trafficker and as a money launderer um working on on behalf of a of a of a
35:31
heroin trafficking ring in Chicago by the US government um there was a
35:37
multi-agency investigation involved in this um investigation so the IRS the DEA
35:43
the FBI and to a lesser extent later on the state department and the CIA also
35:50
got involved because shortly after his involvement became clear it also became
35:55
um he he he had also um started to have some involvement in Nigerian politics so from the point of view of the US rather
36:02
than simply make this sort of midlevel or meet to high level drug trafficker
36:07
International drug trafficker pay for his crimes I guess it was more expedience for the US government to um
36:13
use him for the purpose of uh International influence uh influence
36:19
pedaling because this is someone who was at the time becoming more active in the Nigerian political space bear in mind
36:25
the US actually has form for doing things like this so you recall recently
36:30
the former president of I believe was Honduras um was extradited to the US on
36:36
charges of drug trafficking um the story that I think is perhaps less told is that during the time when he was active
36:43
as a drug trafficker or as a president with ties to drug trafficking he was very much a US Ally and the US was very
36:49
much aware of what he was doing it was not a secret to them you know they have some of the best intelligence networks on the earth so there's there's nothing
36:56
that was happening that was secret to them right and it it was expedient to
37:02
use him as a pawn as a tool at the time and as soon as it was no longer useful then you know we got these headlines so
37:09
Nigeria is currently pretty much where Honduras was maybe a decade ago in that it's being ruled by someone who is for
37:16
lack of a better term um an American puppet right a stoe because this is someone who um has the perfect sort of
37:24
blackmail material being held on him by the US government so um this this wasn't
37:31
um entirely hidden at the time because the the results of the IRS the the IRS leg of the investigation actually had
37:37
some public doc had some documentation in the public domain which I was able to get hold of and with which I was able to
37:44
establish to a very large degree of certainty that this person who was running for president at the time has
37:50
been at the very least indicted for hering trafficking in the US but then it quickly became very clear that the US
37:56
government was willing to do incredible things to keep this information hidden so um at the moment I'm still in court
38:03
with six different US government agencies so the IRS the DEA the FBI CIA the state department and the um
38:10
Executive Office of the US attorneys and there have been some incredible things that have I witnessed through the course
38:16
of of this foia lawsuit where I've seen the US government telling lies in court to protect a foreign criminal I didn't
38:23
know such things were possible it's it's been a it's been a real learning process and as far as it's it's possible to tell
38:30
it's clear that the US government you know even from the from the wording of some of the Privacy exceptions which
38:37
have been used to um prevent the release of this information into the public domain um there have been privacy
38:43
exceptions that that have been linked to National Security somehow it's in the National Security of the US to protect a
38:51
foreign drug trafficker um why why and how exactly that is the case um I guess
38:56
the US government um is the only one that can answer that question so basically that's where Nigeria is right now Nigeria is being ruled by a foreign
39:04
criminal of Nigerian descent who has backing or who at the very least as as
39:10
as recently as last year had the backing of the US government and it seems as if
39:16
based on that relationship that he has with with the with the American
39:21
authorities um he has been able to consolidate himself in power and as you may have seen today they sort of
39:28
Uprising against his um very very blatant misr by the Nigerian masses has
39:35
been met with um incredible amounts of State violence um usually when a protest
39:40
like this um Sprouts it usually doesn't sort of go up in flames on on the very
39:45
first day but today alone which is the very first day of the protest protest no fewer than 11 people have been killed
39:52
across the country it looks like it's only going to get worse and so far it seems as if well the the interests of
39:59
the the US government um do not really seem to coincide with those of Nigerian
40:05
people so it would seem as if this fight the Nigerian people are sort of were we
40:10
in it on on our own basically well we will certainly continue to follow it certainly through
40:16
West Africa weekly and your own by line as well David hundan thank you so much
40:22
for joining us here on the freedom side thank you for having me
40:30
yes well I highly suggest folks check out West Africa weekly that uh David helped found uh in addition to himself
40:35
they're following this very very closely like minute by minute so a lot of great updates uh you can find there about
40:41
what's happening in Nigeria I want to keep pushing forward here ra uh we want to turn to an important topic and that
40:46
is uh ongoing repression of popular struggle and political prisoners in India and we are very very honored to be
40:54
joined here once again by Sutra vayan who's an author lawyer and founder and director of the polus project Sutra as
41:00
always thanks so much for joining us thanks for having me well great to have you no of course and great to have you
41:07
here how long can the moon be cage voices of Indian political prisoners new
41:12
text that has been out in the most recent weeks that you helped put together I want to get into some of
41:17
what's in the text but I I actually want to start here with a little bit of a framing point because I think you know
41:23
maybe for the average person when they think of the term political prisoner India is not a country that maybe comes to their mind so maybe if you could just
41:29
give us some context uh for the the nature of of political prisoners there in India sure um I think um while
41:38
putting together this book I think one thing became very clear to us is that people do not recognize that democracies
41:43
around the world have political prisoners United States has its own political prisoners we have political prisoners right now in the United States
41:50
Britain has its political prisoners uh Israel of course has its own um political prisoners and India like all
41:57
as I said all democracies have political prisoners um I think what we really see is that the word political prisoner is
42:02
often associated with uh regimes that we think are autocratic and authoritarian
42:07
often linked to regimes like Russia and China but in reality all democracies have political prisoners and in this
42:14
book we've really looked at political prisoners as anybody who has been arrested or incarcerated purely for
42:20
their right to dissent and opinions and sometimes simply just exercising their right to citizenship in our book what
42:27
really see is that most of the young students leaders writers lawyers picked
42:32
up all of them sometimes were not even just they were not not the right to resist and protest doesn't exist with
42:37
the Indian constitution sometimes they were simply arrested for exercising their citizenship rights so I think that
42:43
is the context and the frame in which we have to look at political prisoners in India but also in democracies around the
42:49
world and I'm curious if you could speak to specifically what's happened uh in the last decade under Modi in terms of
42:57
the attack um or yeah the attack on descent and what the situation with political Prisoners has looked like
43:03
during the rule of the BJP um I think one of the things we have to be very clear about is that India's
43:09
first political prisoners emerged soon after its independence as early as 1948 49 so political prisoners by itself is
43:16
not new to India political descent uh has a long history and just as political descent has a history there's a long
43:22
history of repression in India but what you really see within modi's regime is that what the previous regime did in the
43:28
Garb of the night you see this regime doing in the morning um and again the
43:33
laws that you see in India like the uapa and then the infrastructure of Terror and Sedition laws that are used to
43:38
criminalize descent again have a long history and we can trace it back the most recent version of this can be
43:44
traced back to what happened in the United States after 911 where you had the Patriot Act kind of replicated in
43:50
India with similar laws so in in the last 20 years what you've really seen is institutionalization of emergency laws
43:57
within India's Constitution which is now under Modi regime has just kind of become um I think what was already a
44:04
very bad situation just got worse and what some of the things that they've done really is today under the India's
44:10
Terror laws anybody could be unilaterally designated as a terrorist without any proof and the burden of
44:15
proof has reversed now it's almost impossible for people to get bail uh they have completely watered down the
44:21
right heaviest Corpus so under Modi things have gotten worse but we also have to understand that the found found
44:27
ations for these erosion of Rights really happened much much before you know one of the things that I
44:34
think is interesting about the book and again the title is how long can the moon be caged is all is that it's presenting
44:39
political prisoners as not aert you know like you just been you just thrown away in prison and people forget you but also
44:45
focusing on sort of you know the small aspects of people inside the families outside where they're really continuing
44:51
their struggle and I was hoping you could give us a little window into some of some of those aspects that the book also reveals
44:58
absolutely um two things I think I think I want people to know that how long can the moon be caged actually comes from a
45:04
letter that Natasha narval who's one of the young student activists was arrested uh comes it's a line that comes from the
45:10
letters that she wrote in prison so one of the things that you really see is that this book really is um about
45:17
locating political prisoners within the larger institutions in which they're incarcerated but also the political
45:23
intellectual life that they belong to when you take someone and incarcerate them it's just not them what happens to
45:29
the people left behind what happens to the families how does it what does it mean to wait for bail for four years uh
45:35
what are the ways in which the institution is cruel and what we really wanted to do is not just talk about
45:42
political prisoners as these great Martyrs and heroes which they are but also the fact that there is an entire
45:47
Community around them that one is completely destroyed that has to rebuild that continues to fight and in some ways
45:54
we had to tell that story that was important in a way for us to understand you have to understand that when s KH
46:01
when some of these prisoners were arrested they left behind young children some of them haven't seen their parents
46:06
there are parents waiting to have not seen their kids um pandu narot who was arrested uh was an adasi man who died of
46:13
swine flu in the prison never saw his family after the day he was arrested so one of the things that we really wanted
46:18
to do is that take as many of these people as we tell their stories and
46:24
place them within the context the histories of res assistance um the intellectual histories the letters that
46:30
they write the families that they come in but also locate them within because India is so vast is that history and
46:36
memory is so local that we have to locate them within their own histories of resistance and I think that's what we
46:41
really tried to do and we try to do it through the voices of these communities through prison writings through material
46:47
objects that were important to them so this is not just a book that is reported but it also is a book that kind of gives
46:53
us various aspects of it the other thing that we book did in the book was that to give a list of every single person
46:59
arrested under these Terra laws since Modi came to power and that kind of gives them the the name the laws that
47:06
they were arrested under and the number of days spent in prison which in some ways for me is a far more cold list
47:12
lists are very powerful ways of telling us what's happening so this book in some ways defies form because it has multiple
47:19
kinds of materials that come together to tell the story that's really amazing and I think
47:24
it's so important uh to be shedding light on the the stories of specific
47:30
individuals who are are and the way this has impacted their lives and the lives of their loved ones and all that said
47:37
you know the purpose of political prisoners or or of imprisoning people for dissenting um is to make an example
47:44
of them right to shut other people up to say this is what will happen to you if
47:50
you do what this person did if you speak out against what we're doing against our policies whatever it is you're speaking
47:55
out against and in this case I'm just curious has it worked to chill people
48:02
from you know or to has it had a chilling effect my apologies has it had a chilling effect on dissent in India uh
48:10
the fact that people have been imprisoned under these laws and what they've had to endure as a result um yes there is a chilling effect
48:17
and there is fear but the Defiance and the resistance hasn't gone away one of the things that we were able to do in
48:24
this book um is that the book by the time the India edition of the book came out some of the political prisoners did
48:30
get bail and they had come out every single one of them when they came out was smiling they were raising slogans
48:35
they were smiling they were talking about the work that had to be done um even those in prison when they were in
48:42
prison many of them uh were trying to help the other prisoners they were trying to write letters they were trying
48:47
to help the others figure out things they were what you really see is that these are India's um some of India's
48:54
most thoughtful activist writers lawyers their entire life is building community
49:00
and making sure that the communities that they fight for can continue to resist against the state violations um
49:07
so you really what you see is that the resistance hasn't the resistance exists and yes there is a chilling effect that
49:13
is fear but imagine every single one of them coming out of prison smiling racing
49:19
slogans and I think it's the state that is scared the ongoing resistance in
49:25
India is not gone away it has gotten worse I think it's made they've made it incredibly difficult the the oppression
49:31
has gone up the repression has gone with modi's third regime I do believe that things will get worse but I do I I don't
49:38
think um the resistance is there the resistance to challenge the state is there and the people's movement in like
49:45
all parts of the world is doing what they do which is consistently resist the state and keep working towards it every
49:52
day no I think that's very true and certainly the work you all do at the Pol project makes that very clear I hope
49:57
people are following it regularly and you know one thing I wanted to just say you know the book is dedicated to all
50:03
those who fight for Freedom um and I love that dedication but I wanted you to speak about that because obviously you
50:08
know the situation in India in and of itself stands alone and it's interesting and relevant from that point of view but
50:14
it seems that for really anyone around the world involved with popular movements that this has a particular
50:20
resonance absolutely I I think that we have to understand that incarcerations authoritarian regimes learn from each
50:26
other uh as I said uh so much of what we see in India was borrowed from the Patriot
50:32
Act uh again India learns quite extensively from what Israel does um
50:38
just as we have cop City here where you have the exchange of knowledge between NYPD and cops in Atlanta and Chicago and
50:44
cops in Israel we are having the same thing being replicated in India and what you're really seeing is this regimes of
50:51
repression replicate around the world and fighting for freedom and I think what really reson to this book is that
50:58
as I am a grandchild of a formerly colonized when my grandfather was alive
51:03
um he was not a subject of an independent nation he was a subject of a colony my grandfather himself was a
51:09
political prisoner so in my lifetime I have seen someone who was colonized so
51:14
for us I think it's not just about what's happening in India the idea that occupied people around the world have
51:22
the right to Liberation and fighting for it and I think that is something that is inherent in the book that is something
51:28
that is inherent in all colonized people and I think we have to continue to learn from each other whether as I said we
51:34
have political prisoners in the United States we have political prisoners in Israel uh State repression is State
51:40
repression across the world and I think there is so much for all of us to learn from each other no I think that is is very well
51:47
put very poignant I believe here in the United States folks should go to Pluto press to get the book is that is that
51:53
correct okay I got it I I actually know that I have it up in front of me you free ebook if you also buy the paperback
51:58
so uh just throwing that out there for folks but sutraa as always really appreciate you joining us how long can
52:04
the moon B cage voices of Indian political prisoners is the book hope everyone is following the polus project
52:09
and as always thanks for giving us some of your time here in the freedom side thank
52:17
you well Eugene we're making our way around the world we are no and it's a really
52:23
interesting text I hope people pick it up it's poetry and in there there's stories there's information and it's uh
52:30
you know there's obviously a very big effort in the United States to whitewash what's happening in India there's a lot
52:36
of very active individuals including in the US Congress uh even some who claim they care about the issues in India you
52:42
know who have gone a long way to put the BJP up on a pedestal there and Mr Mod's government as some sort of you know
52:49
Democratic Ally of the United States and I think this punctures it but also gets the fact it's not just the BJP it's
52:55
others and it has a long history um and a very interesting very important question and you know as someone who's
53:00
looked a lot into this myself are a lot of ties you know between the movements in India historically Liberation
53:06
movements and the movements here in the United States especially in the African-American community and I think that just anyway there's so many
53:12
different other relevant and important things and also you know Visa anything I mean Sutra had a CAO and I didn't
53:18
comment on that but you know worth noting that you know the BJP government is one of the number one supporters of Israel uh and a lot of these rich
53:24
oligarchs you know in India Donnie group and all these other people you know have very close relationships with India you
53:30
know they're basically in Kashmir uh trying to do sort of an Israel option you know they have sort of a settler
53:35
Colonial attitude to what they're trying to do there uh in Kashmir so uh you know a lot of different relevant and
53:41
important Ties on a number of different fronts to the struggles with these people but even beyond that it stands
53:46
alone I mean obviously our good friends at news click um especially prier were were you know have been targeted uh in
53:52
that regard and there are so many so many others Umar khed I think is just past a very high Milestone of time I
53:59
think he's been in since 2020 so you know nonetheless you know it's dozens and dozens of people but they're continuing to fight so really important
54:06
issue and a lot of good connections around the world um but as we're talking about State violence ra I want to move
54:12
to our next story that's the killing of Sonia Massie uh you know by the police here in the United States and to talk
54:18
more about that we are very very honored to be joined here by Mr Shawn Blackman
54:23
my former co-host of a great show by any means necessary and current co-host of Darker Than Blue which airs live on wpfw
54:33
89.3 FM Jazz and Justice radio in Washington DC Sean Blackman thank you
54:39
for being with us sir Eugene ra always a pleasure well the pleasure is all ours
54:45
uh you know I wish we had a better topic to discuss here you know we're something that you and I have talked about so
54:50
often you know over the years that we've we've known each other uh this epidemic of police terrorism and United States I
54:57
I guess before we actually get into the specifics maybe just tell us a little bit at least what happened in this case
55:03
because I feel there's so much going on in the world I think a lot of people actually might have missed this one um
55:08
because of of of everything happening yeah for sure well when we talk about the racist police killing of
55:16
Sonia Massie this is an incident that took place back on July 6 or earlier
55:21
this month and Sonia Massie was killed by a singman County Illinois sheriff's
55:27
deputy uh uh after she actually called the police asking for assistance because
55:33
she thought that there was an intruder someone trying to come into their home
55:38
so when the sheriff's arrived at massie's house they didn't find anyone outside they didn't see any Intruder so
55:45
they went inside the house to have a look around and doing that sort of thing didn't see anyone and the house and so
55:51
then they began just shouting orders at Sonia Massie which of course immediately
55:57
escalated uh uh the situation now even though uh Massie complied with all of
56:03
the officers uh instructions uh she made a comment to them saying I rebuke you in
56:09
the name of Jesus after she was instructed um to remove a pot of water
56:15
from the stove and so after uh she said these words the deputy sha Grayson
56:22
pulled out his weapon uh shouted at Massie uh made threats to her that he would shoot her in the face and so
56:29
Massie set the pot down immediately all of that went to kneel down on the ground as one would do with her hands up and
56:37
even though Massie had her hands up there was no pot in her hand no weapon or anything like that Grayson continued
56:44
to shout at her repeatedly and told her to drop the effing pot while shooting her multiple times while she was already
56:52
on the ground and this puts uh Sonia Massie um and uh frankly a dark and sad
56:59
tradition of black women who have been killed in their homes by police I mean people like charlina ly Tatiana
57:05
Jefferson Brianna Taylor uh Elanor bumpers I mean the list goes on and on
57:11
and on and uhh another thing that's important to note about this is the
57:17
record of Shawn Grayson who was the 30-year-old officer who who killed Sonia
57:22
Massie this is someone who worked three full-time jobs and uh also three
57:28
part-time jobs in four police departments and two Sheriff's offices
57:33
over the past four years all within the state of Illinois and I don't think a
57:39
lot of people really recognize how often uh these kinds of brutal cops and killer
57:44
cops are sort of moved around the state sometimes they go to different states uh get jobs at different police departments
57:50
some of them even start uh security companies and things like that and Beyond that court record show that
57:58
Grayson himself was charged with two DUIs in mcpin County which is also in
58:04
Illinois two years in a row now we're told in this society that police uh are
58:11
these you know highly trained highly professional uh highly skilled uh Crusaders for justice but in reality
58:19
there's such incompetence in the system that someone like Grayson who should have never been in any position of a law
58:25
enforcement certainly not with the weapon this is what allows people like this to not only be uh in police
58:32
departments but it also puts people like Sonia Massie directly in their sights and so you know this uh is not only
58:39
another tragic incident of racist police killing it just goes to show how this
58:45
issue of racist police Terror has not abated I mean it it really does it's
58:51
such a shocking incident but also all too common Sean like you mentioned
58:57
this is part of or this is one of over 700 people in the United States killed
59:02
by police this year already um that's one of the highest numbers since
59:08
apparently 2013 um so you know this is following
59:13
repeated bouts of mass protests across the country over the last decade uh that
59:19
we've seen when it comes to police violence under different administrations from different parties uh yet nothing
59:25
seems to change uh and you know I remember the last presidential election um we heard a lot
59:32
uh from the Republicans about Democrats trying to defund the police but what has
59:38
actually happened since there's been a Democratic president in office has anything changed in the policing
59:45
apparatus in the United States uh For Better or For Worse yeah you know the whole defund the
59:52
police movement was it's it's kind of hard to know how to describe it because the way it played
59:59
out and the way they portrayed was pretty fake be because the narrative that we were given is that oh well all
1:00:06
the Democrat run cities uh defunded the police and then crime uh shot through
1:00:11
the roofs and so that was shown to be a foolish move and this was used to
1:00:16
justify uh Mass investment and mass hiring in police forces all across the
1:00:21
country but but this simply never really happened I mean I live here in Washington DC where we live under a
1:00:28
so-called Progressive mayor uh Muriel Bowser you know the same one who wrote uh black lives matter on the street uh
1:00:35
in front of the White House but has you know facilitated and uh Gone along with
1:00:40
the police on every single instance of a police killing that has happened under her tenure of which there are more than
1:00:48
uh a few and so we see that the police uh in this country were not only not
1:00:53
defunded but the whole idea of it the whole idea of taking money from these
1:00:59
massive police budgets that we see across the country and actually putting it towards something that actually
1:01:06
sustains human life uh this was ruthlessly attacked even Barack Obama uh
1:01:12
uh was called in to attack this idea and he had the audacity to basically say
1:01:17
that you know defund the police was empty phrase mongery now this is the cat who wrode into the White House talking
1:01:23
about Hope and change we can believe in now that was empty phrase Mong green because what we got was Bank bail outs
1:01:30
he refused to codify codify row into law libia was toppled into a failed state of
1:01:36
its leader Gaddafi murdered in the street and so you know it's just clear
1:01:41
that that wing of the ruling class sort of pretended to make a gesture towards
1:01:47
you know some kind of real police reform but since the police are armed bodies of
1:01:53
the state and since that they are in place to protect the interest and the property
1:01:58
of the wealthy of the ruling class they can never uh uh be be reigned in under
1:02:04
this capitalist system because they are in fact the soldiers of capital this is
1:02:10
why they are allowed to brutalize and kill people and get away with it because police are crucial to protecting the
1:02:17
capitalist system itself and so you know we we saw uh Joe Biden and KLA Harris
1:02:24
opportunistically s of uh you know jump on this whole issue with Sonia Massie to
1:02:30
push the the George Floy policing act which actually has some positive things in it it it it's supposed to you know
1:02:36
get rid of no knock warrants get rid of a qualified immunity which basically would take away the kind of Ironclad
1:02:43
illegal protections that that police often have and things like this but particularly with uh KLA Harris who
1:02:49
literally dubbed herself the top cop of California uh Once Upon a Time and not
1:02:56
so very long ago I think it's very cynical uh uh to see her or Joe Biden who promised however many thousands of
1:03:02
police um uh to uh on the street and also was a strong proponent of funding
1:03:08
the police Joe didn't even pretend uh to care about uh defunding you know what I
1:03:13
mean and so particularly as we get closer to the US elections in the United States and I feel like I have to say
1:03:20
it's kind of strange for me as someone who has organized against racist police Terror to see people who have been in
1:03:26
similar spaces and saying similar things and who will talk to you all day uh about the issues with the police but now
1:03:33
seem seemingly can't wait to vote for a cop in November it's just sort of a strange political moment that we're in
1:03:39
in the United States but what everyone needs to be clear on is that the real
1:03:46
solution to racist police Terror in this country does not rest uh with the the
1:03:51
Democratic party it doesn't rest with any of these ruling class parties under this system it rests within of the
1:03:58
social movements and this officer that killed Sonia Massie Shan Grayson he has
1:04:03
been charged with murder and I would argue the only reason that Grayson was even charged with murder is the same
1:04:10
reason that Derek chovin was charged with the killing of uh George Floyd back in 2020 not because all of a sudden uh
1:04:18
the state realized that uh cops shouldn't be able to kill people uh uh with impunity but because of the
1:04:25
pressure that was applied by the movement and we're going to have to keep applying that pressure if we're going to
1:04:31
see an end to racist police Terror once and for all no I think that's an important point
1:04:36
in uh you know Visa what you said about kamla Harris you know Gary tan who is the CEO of why combinator which is like
1:04:42
a big startup incubator and you know he's a major Pusher of Law and Order policies he actually said on Twitter he hasn't openly endorsed Kamal yet um but
1:04:49
he said Top Cop kamla Harris can win and then he excerted out a statement that she'd made about how she supported
1:04:56
severe punishments for certain crimes so I mean it kind of gives you a sense of like the people who are the super pro-
1:05:02
Law and Order people spending you know hundreds of millions of dollars to change the politics of San Francisco think that she's great because she's
1:05:09
quote unquote tough on crime whatever that means is notable but one thing I wanted to ask you Sean uh obviously
1:05:14
president Trump was there yesterday at the National Association of black journalists uh meeting in Sonia Massie
1:05:19
case came up uh he said he didn't know that much about it uh but that he didn't
1:05:24
like it nonetheless would saw but beyond him just obviously trying to you know carry some favor there by not seeming
1:05:30
like he was for it he said something I thought was interesting he said sometimes very bad decisions are made
1:05:35
but they're not made from an evil standpoint and that rubbed a lot of people the wrong way for obvious reasons
1:05:40
because clearly you know a huge motivator in just taking someone's life is obviously going to be um you know
1:05:47
often times racism Prejudice whatever uh and in the case of this officer he seems like he was totally off the chain but I
1:05:53
also think this speaks to an important aspect of what's going on know and Sean and we've you've seen this so many times
1:05:58
people say oh it was just a mistake um as if the sort of individual element of this is the most important factor rather
1:06:05
than the structural element uh which is why we see so many so this happening so many times so I was hoping you could
1:06:11
speak to that because and not that I think a lot of these things are mistakes but even in so far as something is a mistake and someone dies it's not as if
1:06:18
that is then like forgivable like with the Amber Gyer thing everyone's like oh she was mistaken whether or she not she
1:06:23
was didn't make it right right right and first I just got to say you know I went
1:06:29
to journalism School uh at an HBCU of course Florida A&M University and I just
1:06:35
remember nabj just being pushed so hard as something that we had to be a part of
1:06:40
and had to be involved in and that it was basically our duty and you know they had all these fun little conferences and
1:06:47
stuff that they were had and and it was made to seem as though as aspiring young black journalists this is uh what we
1:06:52
should do and so to see the the na DJ invite Trump and announc it at like nine
1:06:58
o'clock on a Monday um almost as if to try to Stave off of the worst of the
1:07:04
backlash that they knew it would come I think is unfortunate to say the very least But to answer your question Eugene
1:07:10
it actually takes me back to uh uh Derek shovin because if people remember um
1:07:16
during the Derek shovin trial uh really the state went out of its way to paint
1:07:21
chovin as a rogue actor as a AU officer who went against all the good training
1:07:28
that that that he was given and that uh uh his killing of George Floyd somehow
1:07:34
violated uh what a police officer should do when of course we know it is the very
1:07:40
nature of the police in this country to do what Derek shovin did to George Floyd
1:07:46
and to do what Shawn Grayson did to Sonia Massie and see the reason this
1:07:51
happens is because if you individualize uh the officer if you say oh well this
1:07:58
person made a mistake or well that person was just uh you know just went roll on that day what that does is it
1:08:05
takes the attention away from the systemic root of racist police Terror it
1:08:12
it it it it it may it puts people in a sort of mind frame of well it's just this person that quote unquote made a
1:08:19
mistake or did the wrong thing but nothing this individual does uh should
1:08:25
reflect on the police institution the police as an institution cannot be questioned precisely because of what I
1:08:32
mentioned earlier because it is so important to the maintenance of the capitalist system and so this
1:08:39
individualizing of uh officers in these cases of police Terror in reality is
1:08:46
just another way of protecting the police as an institution and protecting the capitalist system that they are in
1:08:52
place to serve and this is why and all of the discussion all of the uh uh
1:08:59
legislation and things like that and talk of uh police reforms that we hear we never really talk about the root of
1:09:07
the police as an institution the fact that they come out of slavery and that
1:09:12
to this very day in the 21st century they basically do the very same thing
1:09:18
ain't nothing change but the technology well Sean I think that's 100%
1:09:25
correct I I mean it's funny how obvious some of this seems when you lay it out like that but
1:09:31
how somehow it's never presented that way uh in the mainstream media and obviously uh you know we'll continue to
1:09:38
have to see what happens here I know the officer or at least I mean excuse me the head of the sheriff's department is
1:09:43
claiming they're going to look into it and do something and take him off but you know you never really know either way Sean Blackman host of Darker Than
1:09:49
Blue which you can catch on wpfw 89.3 FM Jazz and Justice radio if you're in DC
1:09:56
turn it on your dial but if you are not you can check it out at the wpfw website
1:10:01
as well where everything streams Sean thank you so much for giving us some of your time here in the freedom side
1:10:06
Eugene R thanks as always well that was a really good
1:10:12
breakdown by by Sean who I just had the pleasure of seeing in Venezuela uh he
1:10:18
was observing the elections there um that was crazy was crazy no I'm glad
1:10:26
you you mentioned that R because you were there in Venezuela uh last week uh During the pre-election period in the
1:10:32
election itself and a little bit in the postelection period as well um and I'm sure you'll have much to say about this
1:10:37
across a number of different fronts uh over the coming days you've already said some on social media hopefully people have seen some of your commentary there
1:10:44
as well but I guess I just wanted to uh offer you an opport if there's an opportunity really I guess I mean to
1:10:50
just speak to what you think is relevant in terms of what people saw I mean obviously there's so many different
1:10:55
issues to back and forth over you know the Electoral count and all these different pieces and a lot to get into
1:11:01
but uh maybe just some of your initial thoughts having been there on the ground well I have a lot to say but
1:11:07
first I want to note that I went to Venezuela from Lebanon where I live and it's just to go from one place where you
1:11:13
see the impact of us imperialism to another place where you see it in a bit of a different way was pretty jarring
1:11:20
for me in the sense that you know Venezuela is a a a country that has suffered for years and years and years under horrific
1:11:28
US economic Warfare in addition to repeated attempts at um at acuse against
1:11:34
the sment in Venezuela the elected government in Venezuela uh there was actually a Washington Post piece that
1:11:39
came out last week that was about us sanctions around the world and admitted in the it was basically like a
1:11:45
confession in the piece said that because of us sanctions the Venezuelan economy contracted three times worse
1:11:52
than what we saw happen in the US because of the Great Depression so we learn about the Great Depression
1:11:57
as being this like apocalyptic economic collapse that caused you know such suffering and Horrors across the US in
1:12:04
the 1930s three times as bad as that in Venezuela man-made because of us
1:12:10
sanctions that's not me saying it that's the Washington Post so all that's to say this is a country that's been reeling
1:12:16
from the impact of us Warfare um and so they had elections they had elections
1:12:22
they have a popular government that was reelected uh with President Nicholas Maduro in one of the most transparent if
1:12:29
not the most transparent process to take place around the world why is it so transparent in Venezuela because
1:12:35
Venezuela is under a microscope because every time it has elections the US calls them fraudulent and refuses to accept
1:12:41
the results and we saw months before this election US government officials
1:12:47
and local right-wing opposition who are allied with the US and have participated in coups in the past say they would
1:12:54
refuse to to recognize the results if they lost if Maduro wins they are
1:12:59
already calling it fraudulent before the elections have taken place and will refuse to recognize the results so I was
1:13:05
very happy that I was going to get the opportunity to go report from Venezuela during these elections because I wanted
1:13:12
to see for myself first of all how transparent is this process that International observers have repeatedly
1:13:17
called so great including president former President Jimmy Carter himself um
1:13:22
has repeatedly called these elections so great and wonderful and better in fact more transparent and easier than what we
1:13:28
see in the US and what I saw I visited a few polling places on Election Day I saw a very transparent process where people
1:13:35
International observers and by the way the opposition had access to witnessing
1:13:40
the this take place even people who voted for the opposition who I spoke to on camera were say were talking about
1:13:46
the ease with which they were able to vote how quick it was I mean it was way
1:13:52
more organized than anything I've ever seen in the United States I'll say that much that said and the results by the way
1:13:57
came out just a few hours after polls closed and in addition as the polls were
1:14:03
closing Eugene there was a few polling stations including one where our own po
1:14:08
respondent um Louise who people should still be following by the way he's still on the ground in kakas witnessed
1:14:14
hundreds of members or activists of the opposition coming and trying to shut down the polls before voting was over
1:14:19
and demanding the poll shut down so that's the kind of opposition we're talking about one that is allied with the United States States um and was
1:14:27
trying to prevent people from voting while also complaining that there's fraud uh anyway there was an election
1:14:33
between Nicholas Maduro and nine other people there was 10 candidates on the ballot more than we get in the US but of
1:14:38
course the most important candidate was uh the opposition was amundo Gonzalez who ended up winning something like 44%
1:14:44
of the vote which isn't Nothing by the way but really he uh he's not a very well-known figure it was this woman
1:14:50
Maria Karina Machado who was banned from running and the US
1:14:55
whines that she's banned from running because Venezuela's an authoritarian dictatorship but actually she was banned
1:15:02
from running because she's participated in several violent coup attempts against the Venezuelan government um I mean you
1:15:09
could imagine Eugene what would happen if somebody in the US participated in several violent coup attempts against
1:15:16
the elected government of the United States they probably wouldn't be walking around free I imagine the punishment
1:15:21
would be worse than just Banning them from running for president so anyway this woman you see on screen right now
1:15:26
Maria Karina Machado she wasn't running officially but she was kind of The Unofficial person running she's the
1:15:33
popular one the man standing next to her is this older sort of Biden like figure who is older and just kind of a bit
1:15:39
incoherent and people don't really know who he is and anyways they they won a pretty I mean I would say 44% though
1:15:44
isn't nothing they did win votes but they didn't win the election Maduro won the election he got like 52% I'm sorry
1:15:52
if I'm bumbling those members but he got over 50% the vote he won fair and square
1:15:57
in this very transparent process over 800 people International uh election
1:16:02
observers came to witness these elections the national lawyers Guild included among those people uh actually
1:16:08
wrote up a report afterwards saying they were very transparent they saw no evidence of fraud uh that said as soon
1:16:14
as it was clear that Madura won which was expected by the way you saw the entire regime change apparatus go kick
1:16:21
into gear uh the opposition I mean Maria Karina Machado went on National
1:16:27
Television uh and refused to accept the results and actually insanely claimed
1:16:32
that it was the opposition that really won and they won every single state in Venezuela and that they won 70% of the
1:16:38
vote that's what they're claiming it's actually insane to even be claiming something as ridiculous as we won every single state I mean if you're gonna lie
1:16:44
about winning at least make it believable um and also their numbers make no sense there's people who can
1:16:50
speak to that better than I can you saw I mean one thing that was really striking for me Eugene was to just see the that the media uh in the US covered
1:16:57
all this as I was on the ground to see it um but more importantly the next day after this election happened you saw
1:17:05
right-wing mobs take to the streets carrying out acts of violence beating
1:17:11
people up burning I mean they burnt down a hospital they burnt down a municipal building in Lara State like just on and
1:17:18
on and on just I actually saw them with my own eyes you know we were driving in the street and actually had to turn our car around because there was a mob of
1:17:26
like dozens and dozens of angry masked men with sticks who looked like they were out for blood um and you know they
1:17:34
were preventing people from going to the airport lots of people ended up missing their flights it was pretty chaotic the day afterwards and these of course are
1:17:40
what are called the guimas of like these are just like these right-wing sort of um mob groups who are just carrying out
1:17:47
acts of like violence and and um and in in you know they're basically just a
1:17:52
bunch of fascists um who are aligned with the right-wing opposition that's aligned with the US uh and this seemed
1:17:57
really well organized a few hours after that the Venezuelan government came out itself and said this was an official uh
1:18:02
coup attempt uh they blamed the US for it you saw us officials kind of backing it rhetorically saying that the Maduro
1:18:09
didn't actually win the opposition doubling down Maduro didn't actually win
1:18:15
um and then trying to get like other Regional uh uh leaders to agree with
1:18:21
that and the right-wing ones did I'm sure you saw what the Argentinian president Javier B was saying you saw Elon Musk suddenly jump into this um and
1:18:29
he's been like tweeting non-stop call saying Maduro Maduro is dumber than a donkey that he's not the president of
1:18:34
Venezuela actually this this right-wing opposition candidate is I mean it's just completely insane Eugene I mean I could
1:18:41
go on and I'm just going to keep rambling if you don't stop me but it it was completely insane what I what I saw
1:18:46
and then also just to see the J of position with the New York Times it's like you see the right-wing Vigilantes on the ground carrying out acts of
1:18:52
violence and then what do you see in the New York Times and on CNN that actually the popular will of the Venezuelan people's being
1:18:59
denied uh and that the opposition actually did win and that these people in the streets who are carrying out acts
1:19:04
of violence are actually protesters just demanding that the people they voted for be recognized um and then the day
1:19:11
following that you saw these massive crowds of chavistas come out to defend uh the government that they
1:19:17
elected to power that won a majority of the vote and then this is still playing out now it's I think it's been a bit
1:19:22
calmer in the streets of Venezuela uh since yesterday and there's been rallies of just like masses and masses
1:19:30
of Po people from popular movements across Venezuela who support their own so their country sovereignty and their
1:19:36
elected government having to once again take on the US and you also see the US US starting to use rhetoric that's
1:19:42
starting to look pretty similar to what they did with Juan Guido where they're refusing to recognize Maduro as the
1:19:48
leader and it seems that they want to recognize this other guy who didn't win um in that way of like kind of
1:19:54
recognizing a parallel government that hasn't actually been elected to power I mean we've already seen the same script
1:19:59
play out it's just ridiculous to watch and just the violence and the nastiness on the ground it makes you very angry at
1:20:07
imperialism yeah well we'll have to see what happens now uh the issue is moving into a new stage president Maduro has
1:20:13
introduced a case uh into the Supreme Court of Venezuela to sort of adjudicate this issue uh you know ultimately that
1:20:20
means that all the different sides are going to have to present all of their evidence and you know allegedly you know Maria Karina Machado and the opposition
1:20:27
they claim it's actually a little unclear what they're claiming and I think it's being reported in ways that
1:20:32
are not entirely clear but they at least claim to have obtained a significant number of voter known as actus the the
1:20:40
records the paper records from enough polls to show that they won but they have not revealed this uh to anyone
1:20:46
except a handful of different reporters the New York Times article was based on uh what they said was uh information
1:20:54
they were were able to see partial information but they themselves said they could not corroborate that
1:20:59
information there are a number of people on social media who are posting what are alleged to be actas saying the same
1:21:05
thing about the opposition so there's a lot of information that's floating around out here about these records
1:21:11
these paper records from the roughly 28,000 voting precincts but I think it's
1:21:16
important for people to recognize and understand that not only has none of this been verified um but you know
1:21:21
everything that's being reported about it is being reported in sort of weird elliptical ways you know what percentage
1:21:27
do they have is it a projection or is it specific so we actually don't know if what is being said has any real validity
1:21:34
but it's being reported by the New York Times by elpis and by others is having complete validity but nonetheless you
1:21:40
know uh president Maduro has said that he will present 100% uh of of what they have uh the Electoral commission is
1:21:47
stating that they have been under Cyber attack that's why they have not been able to post this information but they say that they will post this information
1:21:54
now all be before The Supreme Court we'll have to see how that all plays out but it seems that from a factual basis here we will be able to see one way or
1:22:01
another what's going on um but I do want to note that as you pointed out uh Muno Gonzalez got 44% uh the other opposition
1:22:08
candidates got something I think 4% OD so it's about 48% so I think 52 53 to 48
1:22:14
which hes very closely to interes uh exit poll and interes is considered historically to be one of the most
1:22:21
credible Venezuelan pollsters uh that's being totally wied out uh in terms of of
1:22:26
of what people are talking about in the context of the aftermath of the vote so I I think that there's there's a lot to
1:22:33
be seen here and I think it's notable uh we'll have to look at what the details are but I think the most important
1:22:38
factor is the one that you laid out there um about the protest uh the violent protest the gbas which have a
1:22:43
number of uh uh long history in Venezuela you know burning black people because black people are supposedly
1:22:49
chavistas uh you know decapitating people basically or attempting to Decap
1:22:54
people by uh motorcyclists by putting you know wire across the roads burning
1:22:59
different things populares hospitals uh destroying recently referers bus stations and also this the long history
1:23:06
of the fact that this is a right-wing authoritarian regime they've called for coups they've called for foreign intervention as you said they have never
1:23:13
uh they said before the vote that if they lost that it was totally fraudulent so it gives you a sense of where they were at from the very beginning so it's
1:23:20
you know democracy as it suits them um not as it maybe speaks to democracy in a small descent so uh important factor a
1:23:27
lot to be said there I'm sure you'll be saying more and doing more and bringing us more and uh I think the point that
1:23:32
you also made on your social media is very relevant uh to our current times about how Maria Karina Machado is so uh
1:23:39
tied to Israel and very close to lud and wants to she said if she was President she would move the embassy to Jerusalem
1:23:44
and so on and so forth so a lot of different threads to pull a lot of different things to discuss here and we will keep reporting on it for you there
1:23:50
from the ground we have Lis uh who has been there and is there and we'll have more coming forward and we'll have more commentary as we continue to learn more
1:23:57
and as these exact issues are adjudicated Visa V uh the exact data um
1:24:03
as it becomes available to us uh as it concerns the election we will update you on that but I think r that will uh bring
1:24:10
us to the end of the show here today uh it's great to be back alongside you great show as always thanks to all of
1:24:16
our guests and all of our viewers but before we go ra what would you like to leave our viewers
1:24:22
with well I would like to remind our viewers that if they hav't already make sure you smash that like button smash
1:24:30
that like button like I love that so much uh but more more importantly uh we
1:24:37
are you know especially post Venezuela election as we witnessed this attempted
1:24:42
so far failed coup attempt uh and the way the media is covering it as we have witnessed for almost 10 months now this
1:24:50
ongoing genocide in Gaza and Israel's insistence on essential expanding that
1:24:55
to the entire region uh I think we've learned how important Independent Media
1:25:01
is how important media that is not tied to a corporate war machine is in moments
1:25:07
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the most important things you can do in this moment uh Beyond being in the
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streets yes absolutely well very well said and of course once again thanks to all our guests thanks to all of you who viewed thanks to all of our existing
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patrons big shout out to everybody watching us on Free Speech TV that'll do it for us here on the freedom side this
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week for myself for R for breakthrough as always we will see you next
1:26:27
[Music] time
1:26:34
re Revolution knows no compromise Revolution overturns and
