13 Aug 2024 Real Talk
“Israel should be treated as a pariah state,” argues Francesca Albanese. In this Real Talk interview, we speak with Albanese, the UN special rapporteur on the occupied Palestinian territories, about the reported abuses inside Israel’s Sde Teiman prison and delve into whether the UN is doing enough to ensure Israel’s compliance with international law. We also asked her about the personal attacks levelled against her and whether they could impact her standing within the UN. Real Talk is a Middle East Eye interview show hosted by Mohamed Hashem that delves into the stories and experiences of a diverse range of guests. Recording date: 7 August 2024
Timestamps: 00:00 Intro 00:44 UN report: Palestinian prisoners dying in Israeli custody 07:16 Alleged abuses inside Sde Teiman 12:43 Her report: Anatomy of a Genocide 19:47 What follows this report? 21:45 Is the UN doing everything it can? 27:10 Western interpretation of implementing international law 33:35 ‘Israel should be treated as a pariah state’ 34:23 Personal attacks against Albanese 41:14 Has it not affected your standing within UN? 42:37 Death threats? 44:38 Experience with Western media 50:37 Barred from entering Israel.
Transcript
Intro
0:00
there have been riots against the possibility of arresting and detaining
0:05
rapists alleged rapists this shows the the the the Deep fracture that uh is in
0:12
the Israeli Society Franchesca Alan is an Italian human rights lawyer and the UN special rapur for the occupied
0:18
Palestinian territories earlier this year she submitted a damning report to the UN Security Council titled anatomy
0:24
of a genocide in which he found reasonable grounds to determine that Israel has violated three of the five
0:30
acts listed under the UN genocide convention and its ongoing war on Gaza so we'll speak to her today about the
0:35
developments on the ground and other more recent ones and she joins us now from Italy Franchesca Alan thank you so
0:41
much for speaking to us on real talk thank you for having me Franchesca I want to start off with a recent uh un
UN report: Palestinian prisoners dying in Israeli custody
0:47
report that was put out um you know Israel is facing you accusations that it's been torturing Palestinians and
0:53
Israeli prisons uh this recent report that I'm referring to says that or found
0:58
that 53 Palestinians died in Israeli custody since the 7th of October um it
1:04
also found that Palestinian prisoners faced multiple forms of torture including water boarding sleep
1:10
deprivation starvation electric shocks the release of threatening dogs and
1:15
sexual violence um I know that you also released a report in June 2023 about the
1:22
conditions of Israeli prisons and the occupied West Bank but I I do want to
1:27
ask what did you make of this recent report three comments first of all uh
1:32
I'm I'm glad that finally there is there are organizations reput
1:39
organizations reporting on this because it's a huge issue and I think what has
1:44
been unveiled in the ohchr report and others which I will mention in a second
1:51
is the tip of the iceberg in there in the sense that I've been receiving information and conducting small
1:59
investigation out of lack of capacity um and difficulty to to reach to reach the
2:05
the informed people and the victims since January February uh and there have
2:11
been reports from Israeli and Palestinian human rights organizations since then there should have been
2:18
greater attention to the second comment is what ohchr has produced is a
2:24
harrowing report on a reality that is uh is been is to be read in in context on
2:31
the one hand there is a system which has been in place forever and this is why as
2:37
soon as I became a special repor I decided to investigate the system to
2:42
arrest and detain Palestinians which had brought to to uh Israeli jails nearly 1
2:49
million Palestinians over 57 years of occupation and uh and so the system was
2:56
already there a recent report by betm spoke of an of organized policy to abuse
3:03
humiliate inflict torment and torture Palestinians since October 7 and it's a
3:09
form of of sadism and revenge exerted toward the the Palestinians as such the
3:17
Palestinians as Palestinians and the third element is U the third element is
3:23
that we are talking of of unspeakable crimes crimes that are that should be
3:30
prosecuted at by by the international criminal court and despite this the
3:37
silence among Western uh Western leaders is aoling so
3:45
I mean the idea that I have is the same that Israel is de facto attachable in
3:51
International Community including in the face of abominable crimes against
3:58
defenseless and uh and until they're proven guilty innocent civilian sorry I
4:04
just that last part you were saying Israel is Untouchable because I I couldn't hear it properly yes I said
4:09
Israel is de facto Untouchable in International Community The Tide The
4:15
Tide has changed uh the I think that the reputational damage that Israel has done
4:22
to itself um is irredeemable but it will take time to adjust the real politic and
4:30
create political resolve to hold Israel accountable this is this is my two sents based on my experience particularly my
4:37
experience that's a special RoR people including in the Diplomatic Community know exactly what Israel is doing and
4:45
why it's doing what he's doing and still they will not move a finger back to report I want to ask I mean have you
4:51
come across similar testimonies in in from your experience and in your
4:56
position yes yes I received uh I've
5:02
received harrowing harrowing um information and
5:08
testimonies um both by family members who had seen uh their um their beloved
5:16
ones um yeah tortured in front of their eyes and executed on the spot in Gaza
5:22
but I've also received information by by lawyers uh in operating who had
5:31
been able to act as prisoners that or from organizations who had been able to
5:37
access to visit prisoner prisons uh about the appalling conditions and the
5:43
the comments i' I've heard from from various people who have entered this prison says the situation was bad before
5:50
October 7 but now it's unspeakable and there is again this sense of taking
5:57
Revenge uh exact Revenge from each and every Palestinian who's the who's the in
6:04
in in Israeli custody you think that's the framing that should be viewed through that that it's taking Revenge at
6:10
Palestinians who are in Israeli custody in a way in a way I think yes because
6:16
every Palestinian has been punished a as a Palestinian as a president president
6:22
of Israel uh eruk said himself it's a nation which is
6:28
responsible for what has happen on October 7 and I think that this has been
6:34
the prevailing sentiment among many Israelis operating in the occupation
6:41
forces they have uh they have lifted all restraint
6:48
that used to be there I mean this the the the widespread recourse to sexual
6:54
assaults against uh men women older persons to an
7:00
minors absolutely unprecedented and I can tell you because I've studied the abuses that have taken place over the
7:07
years in Israeli detention system attentively and I cannot say that
7:13
torture was systematic Nows this reminds me of of a recent incident which I'm
Alleged abuses inside Sde Teiman
7:19
sure you you've heard about when the nine Israeli soldiers were arrested on
7:25
suspicion of raping a Palestinian detainee and the direct aftermath of that was was the riot that we've seen in
7:31
the farri protests as well as some uh uh Israeli MPS or members of the knesset
7:37
who stormed the the facility the St Taman and even the finance uh uh
7:44
Minister smotrich um he called the soldiers uh heroic Warriors I mean what did you make of this incident look there
7:51
is also another phase to this story uh I hear from Israeli colleagues and friends
7:58
that uh um that this story of the r of
8:05
Palestinian inmates as sent shock waves across the Israeli Society so there is a
8:13
a sentiment of revolt and disgust for what uh what is is been done against
8:19
Palestinians deprived of their Liberty and at the same time these shows this
8:26
aside along with what you just said meaning there been riots against the possibility of
8:33
arresting and detaining rapists alleged rapists this shows the the the Deep
8:40
fracture that um that uh is in the Israeli Society um this is what what I what I've
8:48
heard calling the boomerang effect of colonization this is what Israel has
8:53
inside itself today um part of the population made of is Israeli officials
9:00
but also the electorate which has uh given the mandate to rule the country
9:05
which is significant who want more and more violence against the Palestinians
9:10
as Palestinians because they are Palestinians regardless of what they've done but just because of who they are
9:15
and on the other uh side you have a population which is not necessarily prop
9:21
Palestinian but shocked by what's happening and um in fact realizing that Israel has lost his moral compass uh or
9:29
whatever was its Moral Moral compass and and this is a the picture I I I have of
9:35
the Israeli Society at the moment and the aftermath of that is that the Israeli military said that it's opened
9:41
an investigation we've seen the Israeli Army say that before and and you know say that they've opened investigations
9:47
into certain incidents uh I think one of the the the the criticisms that even
9:52
human rights experts inside Israel say that the Army whenever it opens an investigation and investigates itself
9:59
you know it shows a lack of transparency so again how do you react to the idea of
10:05
of this investigation I agree with uh those analysts who have appointed that
10:12
these investigations are perfunctory and just posturing in the
10:17
face of the risk of the ICC opening or
10:22
investigations um or bringing charges against more isra more Israeli officials
10:30
I do think that the IC prosecutors request for arrest warrants against two
10:36
pales to Israeli uh leaders has created some anxiety and um and therefore it's
10:44
better to show that investigations are taking place this is part of it I agree
10:49
with this I also think that those who who signed off the the the arrest order
10:57
for the soldiers who had allegedly committed ra uh against the Palestinian detain I I have no reason to believe
11:04
that they didn't do that out of really compliance with with a law and out of moral coage I so I think that there is
11:12
both of of this but you you do also see the perspective of why some analysts and
11:18
human rights experts and whatnot basically Express doubt or or pessimism
11:24
when when when these investigations are open at least of course and this is not just out landish
11:31
speculation uh it's proven Israel has a a record of impunity that it's really
11:39
appalling because there is 99% uh documented impunity for cases
11:45
brought by Palestinians against Israeli Israeli Army and I think the count also
11:51
includes complaints against armed settlers or violent settlers there is simply not one person who has been held
12:00
accountable according to to the applicable applicable law even the the
12:06
few soldiers who have held who have been held accountable in 56 years of
12:12
occupation are I mean have been released even in the case of killing of videotape
12:20
killing as it happened in the case of um as it happened in hro so it there is no
12:28
accountability there there is not that there is no guarantee of accountability there is guarantee of impunity this is documented
12:35
of course things might change but in the current land landscape or in the current scenario it's highly unlikely I want to
Her report: Anatomy of a Genocide
12:43
move on to a report that you released uh earlier this year anatomy of a genocide
12:48
you declared in that report that there are clear indications that Israel has violated three of the five acts listed
12:54
under the UN genocide convention um we take a step back I mean other than
13:00
obviously having this as public record and holding Israel to account what were your hopes of releasing this report an
13:08
Awakening of conscience uh around member States among member states an action I
13:15
keep on finding myself very naive because I do every time I publish a report I say this is going to make a
13:22
change and then nothing changes this is what goes on in your head prior to
13:28
releasing the report yeah I said when they you look when I wrote the report on
13:33
on children I said of course they will act and then it there was October 7 and
13:39
nothing mattered anymore that report was unfortunate because it was delivered
13:44
really at the worst possible moment the attention um the attention spam for the
13:49
Palestinians was was virtually none among especially among Western countries
13:54
but that report is still there and it is indictment look if I read my report now
13:59
in retrospect self-determination the exposing the mass incarceration system and um or how
14:07
Israel treats children I do see trunion and I do see that this was there were
14:14
clear clear indications than a genocide meaning the physical destruction because this is how genocide is interpreted the
14:21
physical biological destruction of a people would come sooner later it would
14:26
just a trigger to be uh pulled and it was the 7th of October but so uh yes I
14:34
do have I always have hope that things might change but of course there there
14:39
was no no political no political change at all after the the release of the
14:46
report although although I do think that I have somewhat contributed to shift the
14:54
the mindset or to shift the mentality uh around the question first of all because
15:00
has the report is so solid it has not been attacked on the substance once not
15:05
not one of the elements I have produced in the reports and trust me I know that my reports are are micro studied when
15:14
they come out so I pay attention to e every comma in even the the the smallest
15:22
details and foot notes because I know that I will be held accountable for any possible mistake and and in this
15:29
substance the report has not been challenged you say that the report hasn't been attacked but I'm sure you've
15:34
seen this clip um when the reporter asked the spokesperson for the state department about the report they they
15:42
they attacked you they accused you of anti-Semitism awful but then we will talk about that I don't want it to be
15:48
about me but the thing is that it has helped shift the mentality so I notice
15:54
and I don't want to say that it's because of me or my work but I noticed the emphas for example on the the the
16:02
emphasis on uh systematic issues that is emerging from other analysts as well
16:09
that the look at the what I call the humanitarian camouflage meaning how Israel uses international law Juro to
16:15
justify the violence against the Palestinians this is something that somewhat has percolated the debate and
16:21
it's or has embued the the debate is there and it's U like my
16:27
self-determination report if you look at the documentation that was presented um
16:34
before the international court of justice in in preparation of the its advisory opinion it was
16:41
overwhelmingly uh relying on on my report on self-determination and other
16:47
reports fored by other special reporter and independent experts so it's it's
16:52
helping to shift the the the discourse and it's not necessarily
16:57
acknowledged because somewhat Israel and its acolytes have managed to create a
17:04
reputational damage to me as a Persona and a mandate older that is table and of
17:10
course it's unfortunate but it's not new can I ask you about how you felt again what was going on through your mind
17:16
before you gave that speech at the UN following the release of your report I mean that speech was clipped up by
17:21
various news organizations but again I want to kind of peel the layers a bit and and explore what you were thinking
17:30
and what you were hoping to do through that spe yeah look I'm as a human rights lawyer I I'm I find myself having a
17:36
really thick skin in the sense I'm not someone who okay I can of course I'm
17:42
very passionate about my work and what I do I'm very committed to Justice it's very difficult that I it's very rare
17:51
that I'm affected by my work writing that report was really painful and
17:57
because of the evidence I had to say there was no possibility for me to turn
18:03
my eyes away from the horror the brutality that have seen human beings
18:09
enacting so there was the shock for what was happening to the Palestinians but also the shock for seeing Israel is
18:15
doing what they were doing am me the misinformation the fact that also seeing Palestinians being killed being
18:22
brutalized and then being blamed and being smeared there so this as been my
18:29
the prevailing sentiment while I Was preparing that report but before delivering that speech I felt yeah I
18:37
felt very emotional people who have known me for for over a decade to and were there on that day say oh you can
18:44
also you I I have seen you your hands are shaking they were surprised that you
18:49
were showing emotion yes they were they were because I'm when because I'm the
18:54
kind of person when I'm when I'm upset um I'm someone who gets frustrated and
19:01
expresses her frustration not necessarily emotions that day my hands were shaking because it was I felt how
19:08
heavy it was the message I was delivering including for many who are really really um uh impassionately
19:18
supporters of the state of Israel I do understand how many people felt outraged
19:23
by that report because they do believe that Israel is a democracy beh according
19:29
to uh human rights standards but it's not and I'm sorry to be the the one uh
19:36
destroying the party but it is what it is and it's a hard mission to to to
19:42
carry and discharge but it's yeah I have to be the carrier of bad news as far as
What follows this report?
19:47
your mandate is concerned what follows this report what else can you deliver on of course I follow up on my my uh
19:56
reports by interacting with member states probably you you might have realized
20:01
that what is clearly different between me and my predecessors is my engagement
20:07
with the media I try to I'm very open and accessible to journalists because I
20:12
think it's important there are not many uh it's not that there are not many voices speaking out on Palestine but
20:19
it's very difficult to find people belonging somewhat to the UN system
20:25
ready you're much more recognizable for sure yeah but I've made I've made also
20:31
other special repors who are equally committed to Justice uh and human rights
20:37
as I am I've also managed to make them more visible because I can tell you I
20:43
mean there is a a the shock that I experience because of what I'm I'm
20:49
seeing on an everyday basis is shared among special procedures mandate holders
20:54
and I I initiate most of the actions concerning Palestine but they are hugely supported and and
21:01
there are other actions that are initiated by others on food Health um or
21:07
countering terrorism so there is a there is there is a huge sense that here is not only the life of Palestinians and
21:14
Israelis at stake there is the solidity of the International System which
21:20
functions as a peace preserving system only if its rules are respected univers
21:28
Al equally by all and not and and it cannot be considered cannot be treated
21:34
as my predecessor Mel link used to say as a Manel where you can pick and choose
21:39
what to apply and what not and who whom to apply it to do you think the UN is
Is the UN doing everything it can?
21:46
doing everything possible or everything it can do um when it comes to Israel's
21:51
Conformity to international law it depends because the UN it's it's a huge
21:57
system so uh the security Council absolutely not absolutely not because of
22:03
the vetos yes because of the US veto it boils down to that the Security Council
22:09
is not effective primarily because of the of the strength and the paralysis
22:14
provoked by the by the US uh VTO which has always been revolting but now at the
22:23
time of atrocities is is really shameful and it will be it will be
22:30
remembered eventually Justice knocks at the door of those who have wrongdoings
22:38
to account for so I mean this is my optimism I do believe that the US will
22:44
be judged because of the support they have given to Israel was while he was
22:49
genociding the Palestines and displacing them from what remains of their land basically um then
22:58
of of course there is the general assembly which is uh which is a different a different reality which is
23:05
more democratic and at the same time I do not think that the general assembly is doing enough first of all because
23:11
there are opportunities that have not been Saed like the reactivation of the
23:16
aparti committee or the uniting for peace resolution that would allow to
23:22
somewhat circumvent the limitations of the imposed by the security Council but
23:27
also I do think the member states are not doing enough in colle collectively
23:33
and individually and these are UN member states so they're part of the system why
23:40
they don't they impose sanctions and an arms embargo uh without the security
23:46
Council declaring declaring it this is something that individual member states
23:52
or at the regional level could and should do and then there are of course the the organization s like the office
24:00
of the High Commissioner for human rights or UNICEF Andra and then it very much depends uh on on the leadership of
24:07
each organizations there are organizations which are more outspoken and we have had uh Ana which is probably
24:15
the UN agency which has suffered the the the the most uh pressure and attacks and
24:22
losses anra has lost 200 staff members in the past 10 months and and undergone
24:29
really um huge challenges in order to stay alive
24:35
um UNICEF has done an incredible job and so wh and then there are organizations
24:41
which are more tent again it depends but institutional culture in the UN is uh is
24:48
to be is to preserve some diplomacy to respect uh to to respect member states
24:56
even when they they violate international law this is something that I I find uh uh having shown its limits
25:04
to say the least and the reason why I asked this in the general sense is because even the UN itself has lost over
25:11
190 members uh of its un staff who have been killed in Israel's war on Gaza I
25:17
mean that's more staff than than any other time in the organization's history
25:23
so again it goes back to the question is there nothing that they could Implement um or they could do to to try and
25:29
alleviate some of this look eventually without member states support there is
25:34
really little they can do uh they can uh they can denounce the situation as uh as
25:43
clearly and explicitly as it's needed but without political
25:49
resolve it's it's difficult to see to see any meaningful change this is the
25:54
brutal reality this is the world we live in but and and again what what discourages me right now is that it's
26:03
true that the US is a powerful AE on the side of Israel but I can't believe I
26:11
can't believe that it BLS my mind that the rest is completely supine in the
26:18
face of this Alliance so it means that a number of Western countries are fine
26:25
with what US the US and Israel are um how the US and Israel are behaving at
26:32
International level Visa international system and also other countries are just
26:38
indiffer I mean the Arab world this requires its own investigation and its
26:44
own reflection uh I mean a reflection on its own because it's pretty it's pretty The
26:52
Silence of many uh Arab countries and and and the fact a number of them
27:00
maintain ceration with Israel even at the time of
27:06
atrocities this not normal I want to ask you about
Western interpretation of implementing international law
27:11
a quote that really struck me that you said as you know for someone who's a who's a legal scholar you were talking
27:17
about the implementation of international law and then you were referring to the Western
27:24
Way of interpreting international law and then you said this quote you said we force our categories our Pace our
27:32
language upon the other um I don't know if you remember this particular quote
27:37
but I wanted to see if you can expand on it the debate at the scholarly level at
27:42
the academic level the debate concerning uh the the apparent dichotomy between uh
27:50
human rights and the other values for example Asian values or Global South
27:57
values uh is is old so nothing new there but it's true that the West has been not
28:05
only the main proponent of the codification of of Human Rights um while
28:12
I do believe that human rights are the conquest of uh many many movement and
28:19
people around the world those who fought against slavery for gender recognition
28:24
or for the rights to food sovereignity Etc so uh but Western State have
28:31
codified rights and they also used human rights as a as a as a sort of a stick uh
28:38
or a benchmark against which to measure uh member states other states uh uh sort
28:46
of development and then they fail so miserably they the the human rights the
28:53
human rights test comes to Israel um again it's not just not just Palestine
29:01
because if we look bit deeper or if we dig a bit deeper we see that the same kind of the double standard hypocrisy is
29:10
evident in the way Western States interact with uh with the global South
29:16
look with at migrant and refugees how they are treated it really depends on where they come from Ukraine versus the
29:22
rest of the world this has been this has been quite a telling case of discrimination on ground of race the way
29:30
Ukrainian refugees have been treated which is great Vis how refugees from
29:36
other parts of the world primarily the Arab world or Africa are treated um so
29:41
this is not unique at the same time there is no parallel in in recent
29:48
history of a country that is considered Western Country or very close to the
29:53
West which has committed so many violations with impunity and being
30:00
supported continue to be supported by by most member member states in the west
30:08
this is quite this is quite unprecedented and this hypocrisy is really putting the validity of the human
30:15
rights framework to attest I also think of one example and you can tell me if if you agree with with with this or not but
30:22
hearing what you're saying um I think of when you know us officials like Hillary
30:29
Clinton for example um or previous officials who who've come out and said that on October 6th you know there was a
30:35
ceasefire on October 6th but remember there was a ceasefire on October 6th
30:42
this idea that history when it comes to Israel Palestine started on October 7th
30:47
and and what came after I mean is is is that a correct analogy in reference to what you're saying about the Western imp
30:54
implementation of international law partially indirectly yes in the sense that theyve really not seen the
31:02
necessity of applying international law uh to respect the right to
31:09
self-determination of the Palestinians um but this denotes or this is a reflex
31:16
of another problem inner discrimination or against against the other which in
31:23
this case is pal are the Palestinians so yeah the Palestinians are not considered
31:31
the facto are not considered are not treated as and the proof of it is the fact that
31:38
I often quote the the data and during 16 months have been a special upor over 400
31:45
Palestinians had been killed by Israeli soldiers or SE and 40 Israelis been
31:53
killed within the same time frame you previously said that there was a risk of genocidal violence expanding to the West
32:00
Bank and East Jerusalem yeah I mean and I'm not the only one saying that the Lin Institute on the prevention of genocide
32:07
has sounded the alarm months ago saying it's clear that there is a risk of
32:14
genocide expanding to the rest of the occupied Palestinian territory um
32:22
because of certain features that I'm currently studying but the the level the
32:27
arbitrary of killing detaining and uh detaining
32:33
Palestinians um the the the acceleration of the settlement construction and
32:40
expansions the robbing the Palestinians of their land and the home
32:47
demolitions this are this are accelerated uh at the pace that can only
32:52
be explained as a 360 Degrees assault against the Palestinians as a People
32:59
Israel doesn't want pal the state of Israel doesn't want the
33:05
Palestinians uh in the land that it believes being of the Israeli Jews only
33:12
this has been critically explained uh by smish among others uh in its 20 2017
33:22
plan saying the Palestinians have three choices they can either stay kn that
33:28
they will be subjected to us because they are inferior or they can go somewhere else otherwise they they they
‘Israel should be treated as a pariah state’
33:35
will be killed do you think Israel is risking becoming a parias state I think Israel should be treated as a parias
33:42
state because this is what it is it's a state that practices apartheid it's a state that has uh Advanced
33:50
colonialism the time colonialism was clearly banned uh and had been G over in most of
33:59
the world um and because it has really
34:05
scarred the inter the International System both in its normative framework
34:11
component and uh in terms of effectiveness of its institutions in in
34:17
a way that it's it will take time to recover from I want to move on to the
Personal attacks against Albanese
34:24
attacks that have been directed at you I mean I mean we were just off camera we were talking about the last time we
34:30
spoke two years ago the last time we spoke I asked you about the attacks back
34:35
then that were directed against you um by Israeli officials I mean now there's
34:41
been two years later there's been more attacks um but I'm going to read you four headlines and I want to just get
34:47
your reaction to them um here's one anti-semitic un special raor Franchesca
34:54
albanesi banned from Israel that's just drew post uh un official called Terror
35:01
sympathizing anti-semite by Israeli Ambassador as calls grow for her dismissal Fox News contentious un rapor
35:09
accuses Israel of several acts of genocide in Gaza Times of Israel Franchesca albanesi must be fired from
35:17
the UN an editorial by the Jerusalem Post I mean there's others as well that you've seen I know but how do you react
35:24
to all of this part of me would say that this is expected this is to be
35:30
expected because anyone anyone uh Who Dares criticizing Israel's
35:37
human rights performance which is frankly what uh for example independent experts do Vis A
35:44
States this is our job um is is attacked
35:50
as an anti-semite uh as a pro Palestinian pro- Hamas Pro terrorist is
35:57
M Etc so part of it was expected I was not expecting this ferocity though um in
36:05
the sense I was expecting it from from Israel and the the significant uh uh
36:13
cellation of pro-israel um non-governmental
36:18
organizations but they are clearly governmental organizations that that are present in the UN system as well but I
36:25
was not expecting other parts of the international diplomacy to follow like the us or the
36:35
or Germany or France uh so yes I've had some serious clashes with the with the authorities in
36:42
the states most recently it was Linda Thomas Greenfield who who attacked you yes but I mean in a way I I I despise
36:52
and resent the reputational damage that they have caused me but at the same time
36:59
I mean I my very mandate and who who I am the way I
37:05
interpret it is a jause toward them I I'm I mean I force them to look at
37:12
themselves in a mirror and see the ugliness of what they are doing and what they have become as members of the
37:19
International Community of course they react violently and they believe that by a accusing me
37:28
somewhat they will delute the effectiveness of my messages so far it
37:35
has not happened because I do see that still when I go to the United Nations or when I do meet uh diplomats behind
37:43
closed doors they listen to me and they listen intently the point is that this
37:49
is um the human rights movement and which includes independent experts which
37:57
is trying desperately and Relentless relentlessly to bring Justice to to
38:05
Palestine to Palestinians and Israelis alive is facing a
38:11
Monumental um system of denial and
38:16
closure it's like if there was a fortress around Israel and it's it's
38:24
difficult to undo this but my take it's just matter of time I really believe
38:29
that it's just matter of time and at the same time how many people are going to
38:35
die how many innocent lives will be taken will be sacrificed on the alar of
38:42
politics while there is this adjustment you know obviously I'm not taking away
38:48
from from what you just said but the reason why I'm highlighting is that maybe a lot of people don't know that your position is actually not a not a
38:54
paid position um absolutely with all these attacks uh against you um how do
39:01
you find the will to continue Especial that it could affect your family members as well it could affect your children
39:06
because this is you know very easy stuff to find on the internet of course it does of course it does look it's a I
39:12
wouldn't say it's unbearable because I bear it but my old family has paid I
39:18
have I've had to change my family habits because of of the threats against me my
39:24
children my husband my husband has been put under so much pressure for the falsehood that has been spread against
39:30
him I mean and he's a very renowned Economist and of course everyone has
39:36
been everyone had to adopt and they have young kids so nothing of this has been Pleasant and at the same time you know I
39:45
I've been thinking about that and discussing with my family shall I stop for the sake of our of our safety and
39:53
our sense of security and I and we have we have um agreed that no that we cannot
40:02
be intimidated we have decided that I shouldn't change because of this
40:09
pressure rather the contrary I have a responsibility to stand even more still
40:16
and stronger in the face of these attacks because I also I'm looked at not just by the by those who cannot stand me
40:23
and my mandate but by others who need to be inspired who need to see that it's a
40:30
it's a moral obligation to stand on the side of justice and yes it comes at a
40:35
cost it comes at a huge cost but if we are not keen to sacrifice some of our
40:42
comfort while other people risk to lose everything what remains of our Humanity
40:48
this is what Humanity means is feeling what the other uh within our human
40:54
family is feeling and and trying trying to help so I mean again so this is why I
41:02
say yes it's annoying it's really annoying to be on the receiving end of
41:07
this pressure which is enormous but it won't change it won't change what I'm
41:13
doing and some must Wonder Franchesca you know being again attacked and called
Has it not affected your standing within UN?
41:18
things like anti-semitic or or an activist on behalf of the Palestinians and the other labels that they've
41:24
they've directed at you I mean has that not affected your understanding within the UN no no no no no rather the
41:31
contrary people wonder about uh how I manage to stay sane with all this
41:38
because it's again it's it's really it can be really damaging uh but my principles are
41:44
stronger and I think people respect it look look the the the United Nations
41:50
know exactly exactly what I'm doing some officials might not feel comfortable
41:58
with it because they are too comfortable with the status quo because they were too comfortable with the old style
42:03
apartheid that Israel was embodying with no one really talking about that and yes
42:09
couple of reports uh from independent experts or others being presented and discussed in un fora so of course some
42:16
can be um can be um bothered by how
42:23
I'm I put myself into the public debate but as long as I don't break any rules
42:30
of my cut of conduct I'm I do what I have to do as an independent expert the beauty of Independence has it ever
Death threats?
42:37
reached the level of death threats no yes then you never know you never know
42:43
how serious they are so I don't want to know but I mean I'm taking precautions you
42:49
are yes yes but not not obsessively no you never fear for for your life though
42:55
you never it never gets to that level with you not to the point of impairing my life no look I come from a country
43:04
where people have paid for their commitment to Justice we have had very
43:10
well-known judges who are engaged against the mafia uh and to bring
43:16
Justice to the victims who have lost their life and the thing is that I would
43:22
dishonor the memory of these people who I look whom I look at
43:27
uh as as icons and and models I would dishonor them if I did something
43:35
differently from what I'm doing meaning staying put I need to continue to expose
43:42
the huge IL legality and the huge Injustice that the Palestinians are facing and to an extent Israel is as
43:50
them as well because I keep on saying a system where human some human beings
43:56
Brut I and torment other human beings is not just just the human dehumanizing for
44:02
those who suffer this tor but also for those who inflict it sooner or later
44:07
will come back to that and actually I think it's it has started because the
44:13
fact that Israel is now so has has extremist so embedded in
44:22
in in a political system that has traditionally be seen as as
44:27
this is a sign that impunity sooner or later starts to festers inside know
44:35
inside the system itself what has been your experience like with Western and mainstream media I mean you've given
Experience with Western media
44:41
tens and dozens of interviews especially over the last year maybe hundreds yes um
44:48
it changes huh uh but there are there are a few common elements there are
44:56
countries like like my own country Italy where the censorship is around Palestine
45:04
and the self- censorship is unparalleled I've not seen any other countes in other
45:10
other Western countries where the there is knowledge of what's going on and at
45:16
the same time there is a conscientious choice not to not to report on the facts
45:22
to keep is this because of the government in place right now in Italy partially because of that but I think it's also the The Reflex of long years
45:32
of disengagement with the question of Palestine and also the pro-israel lobby
45:37
is very strong in Italy yeah I think that this is this is the these are the
45:42
major the major factors but even with more uh left leaning governments um the
45:51
the situation for the past 30 years has been has been incrementally bad and and uh and I
45:57
wouldn't say a pro-israel stance has emerged because Italy has never been anti-israel Italy was historically close
46:07
to the people of Israel but not at the expense of the rights of the Palestinian people and always in defense of the
46:14
rights of the Palestinians to exist as a people including to resist as a People Israel to resist Israeli oppression so
46:20
this is this is something very important while now there is a an a critical
46:25
alignment with everything and anything that Israel says does and says and also
46:31
the Israeli Embassy in in Italy has been very present in Italian institutional
46:39
life and this is something that I know because people in institutions behind closed doors talk about that so there is
46:46
a a sense of again as I said of untouchability when it comes to when it
46:52
comes to Israel I've experienced it myself also what is particular in Italy is that like other countries in
46:58
including in Europe there is no there are no many Progressive Jews
47:04
who are outspoken and critical of Israel so it seems that the Jewish Italian Jewish
47:11
Community is completely um on the side uh of Israel whatever it does and what
47:18
about American and other European Outlet other countries other countries it's not
47:25
um it depends depends in general I I like engaging with the media even when
47:31
they come with question with questions which are not particularly intelligent I was thinking of all those who have asked
47:39
me do you Hamas like hundreds of times uh no probably not hundreds but
47:45
thousands times for the first months I condemn I was not condemning Hamas I
47:51
condemn Hamas acts which have harmed civilians by killing brutalizing
47:57
or kidnapping civilians of course I do why do you ask but I've never been asked
48:03
and I've never heard Israelis being asked do you condemn what your
48:08
government or what your army is doing so this has been really annoying but other
48:14
than that I've enjoyed working with um with the not working I've enjoyed my interaction with the media what I don't
48:21
like is not being given space as it happened in Italy it's astonishing that they have speaker special RoR the
48:30
someone who's been who's been designated as the expert the independent expert on
48:36
Palestine at the international level by the UN Human Rights Council and they
48:41
never uh seek their her opinions this is this is quite quite bothering uh but
48:48
other than that it's fine I mean it's it's still an opportunity even when you have
48:54
critical not critical even when you have media who ask clearly biased questions
49:00
it's still a good opportunity to raise awareness what do you think the media is still getting wrong when it comes to Gaza and the West Bank couple of things
49:07
I do see that there are once strongly reputed
49:14
media who really try the utmost to cover up uh for Israel's wrongdoings to alter
49:24
the reality and I find it so unethical and unprofessional
49:30
um so this is clearly wrong but sometimes they also do not understand
49:36
and they do not understand the fact because of an inner bias of an
49:41
inner orientalism which is an elegant word word to say
49:49
racism so there is a bit of racism in
49:54
Western in Western media toward the Palestinians of course I'm I'm brutally
50:00
generalizing but this is this is what I perceive at the mainstream level for example in the UK or in the US or in uh
50:09
in in Italy in Germany not in Spain not in Ireland so there are exceptions um
50:17
but it's uh yeah yeah it's these are these are are the most important wrongs
50:24
and Al also sometimes they just don't veryy the facts so they report what the
50:29
Israeli um military or the Israeli government say without verifying and I
50:34
find it really unprofessional what really comes next I mean you've been barred from entering Israel which is a
Barred from entering Israel
50:42
crucial element of continuing your mandate if I'm not mistaken you still have a few years left in your position
50:49
so what what are the next steps that you are hoping to achieve I've been
50:54
officially declared persona ra by Israel which makes my life more complicated but
51:01
I've never tried to enter Israel since I became a special repor I want I and I demand to be allowed to
51:10
enter the occupied Palestinian territory over which Israel maintains an unlawful
51:15
occupation and it's this unlawfulness cannot be recognized so I I find
51:22
unacceptable for example that I need to seek an Israeli visa in order to be
51:29
allowed to enter the occupied Palestinian territory Israel must operate with the United Nations or else
51:37
face consequences uh but before me there was already a def Factor ban of special
51:43
reports on the occupied Palestinian territory because in 2008 Richard folk was detained and deported and no special
51:52
reps has been allowed and no special repur on the op has been allowed in ever
51:58
since so they I managed to get that ban or formalized but it has always been
52:03
there since 8 in the meantime what what else can you do within your Mandate of
52:09
course I I expect to be allowed into the occupied territory so it's not that I
52:14
take it as a I take Israel's attitude as immutable hopefully it will change in
52:20
the coming years so especially because member states will have to come to terms
52:25
with the i CJ recognition of the illegality of the occupation in the era
52:31
of technology and the technology allows us to reach pretty much everywhere even
52:39
when our our physical body cannot I've
52:44
been able to access victims and their legal councils um huge constituencies of
52:52
both Palestinians and Israelis lawyers human rights organiz izations
52:57
experts uh I will continue to hold the consultation with them to receive um
53:03
allegations and submissions to maintain active uh engagement with the with the
53:09
Academia um with Jewish and Palestinian communities outside Palestine outside
53:17
Israel so um I will continue to to do that of course I'll continue my job as
53:23
I've done so far do you find Hope in your job and I won't ask ask any more questions but do you find any
53:28
hope yeah of course of course I do we do not have the luxury not to have hopes
53:34
until there are lives to be saved there is something that Mara G said that that
53:41
touched me very much she said the difference between the people in Gaza and the people in the varsa GTO is that
53:49
the the the former um can be saved and must be Sav unlike
53:56
the the lck so until and unless there is there is one life to be safe and to be
54:03
protected I have hope and on that note Franchesca alanazi thank you so much for speaking to us on real talk I appreciate
54:09
you taking time from your busy schedule thank you so much thank you thank you
54:17
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