Israeli historian Ilan Pappe launched his new book, "Lobbying for Zionism on Both Sides of the Atlantic," on 11 June at an event organised by The Cordoba Foundation, MEMO and One World Publications in London, UK. At the event, Pappe spoke about historical and present antisemites who have supported Zionism.
Transcript
0:00
[Applause]
0:01
thank you anas uh thank you the Cordova
0:04
Foundation uh Middle East Monitor Halal
0:08
Center special thanks to my dear friends
0:12
Rada and N for sharing uh the podium and
0:16
Dr dud Abdullah and one world for
0:20
enabling me to publish this book I'm
0:25
particularly moved by having the friends
0:28
here with me on the panel I think I met
0:31
rather in 1981 for the first time you
0:34
can calculate the years we don't want to
0:37
calculate the years we met at the house
0:40
of parliament of all places by an event
0:42
I don't know if you remember rather
0:44
organized by The
0:45
Spectator uh with the PLO representative
0:48
at the time uh I rather was aware of
0:52
something I wasn't aw when we met when I
0:56
told her because she liked much of what
0:59
I said already 1981 and I said to her
1:02
you see not all the zionists are bad and
1:05
R said to me you might not be a Zionist
1:08
but you don't know it and it took some
1:10
time before I realized myself that
1:13
actually the views I express could not
1:16
have been defined as Zionist ideas but
1:21
it took time for me to liberate myself
1:23
from that
1:24
ideology and uh as already mentioned uh
1:27
I uh rather I appeared again uh in the
1:31
book uh and at a time in the UK when it
1:34
was very difficult to speak for
1:36
Palestine to stand for
1:38
Palestine uh and it took a lot of
1:41
courage and a lot of effort and
1:43
commitment to insist that Palestine
1:47
should be represented in the public
1:48
domain in the media in politics and uh
1:53
we are standing on wide shoulders today
1:56
due to the immense and incredible work
2:00
by activists like Dr Rak Cari GRE V also
2:04
great pleasure to see my dear friend N I
2:07
was trying to remember when I met you
2:08
first but it's also in the very distant
2:13
uh past although n and I were born not
2:16
far away from each other geographically
2:19
I think we only met outside of
2:21
Palestine uh and uh what I do remember
2:25
is that that n and I participated in a
2:28
very naive effort by our dear friend
2:31
Edward the late Edward S he was
2:33
sometimes naive he brought Israeli and
2:36
Palestinian historians to Paris in 1999
2:39
we won't mention the names of the
2:41
Israeli historians 97 97 in '97 Paris in
2:45
Paris and he uh thought that there was a
2:48
common ground to to agree about the
2:50
version of History if you remember no
2:53
and he was deeply deeply disappointed
2:55
that there was no common ground and this
2:57
is important for him it was important
3:00
because at that time together with
3:02
Daniel burb may he live long uh they
3:05
thought that they found a recipe for
3:08
coexistence that was not very relevant
3:10
to the reality on the ground and Dr dud
3:14
I think you you invited me many years
3:16
ago for a conference in London and it
3:18
was for me the first experience of being
3:21
introduced to the world of the Muslim
3:23
Community in Britain and its very
3:26
special
3:27
commitment uh and devotion to the
3:30
Palestine question it opened for me and
3:32
new world of uh alliances
3:37
friendships uh and winning the
3:39
confidence of the community is something
3:41
I really cherish and appreciate and uh
3:44
without the help of this community it
3:47
would have been very difficult for me to
3:49
withstand the kind of pressures that all
3:51
of us uh are witnessing when we speak
3:54
freely and truthfully for uh Palestine
3:57
so thank you all for being here and I
4:00
really appreciate it I uh wanted to
4:04
write this book because of a conundrum
4:06
that really interested me and intrigued
4:09
me over the years how come a state that
4:13
is declared to be a high-tech state with
4:16
the strongest army in the Middle East
4:19
with the full support of the United
4:21
States and the West still tries to
4:25
advocate for its legitimacy so many
4:28
years after why is this lack of
4:31
certainty by the state itself and
4:33
whoever represents it that maybe its
4:36
legitimacy is questioned on the one hand
4:41
on the other hand why the Palestinian
4:45
case and cause which is very simple in
4:49
many ways and very easy to understand as
4:53
a basic moral
4:55
issue still does not succeed to become a
4:59
legit imate cause in so many places
5:02
where decision are made where policies
5:05
are
5:05
pursued and uh I thought that this kind
5:09
of conundrum needs uh not a soundbite
5:12
answer which usually we we need to give
5:14
under the pressure of media and so on
5:17
but maybe I need to go back in history
5:20
and very uh slowly
5:23
reconstruct the history of lobbying for
5:25
Zionism to try and understand why today
5:28
we are where we are and this is why I
5:32
apologize for the length of the book I
5:35
know that many people don't like to read
5:38
books at all and many people don't like
5:40
to read long books uh there's sometimes
5:44
people who prefer just to look at the
5:45
screen of the
5:47
smartphone uh it's not an SMS book um
5:51
but I do hope that uh the the patient
5:54
will pay because you need to really go
5:58
step by step from the begin beginning to
6:00
understand the longivity of the lobby
6:03
its
6:04
Effectiveness but maybe hopefully also
6:07
realize its deficiencies and weaknesses
6:10
so that we have a hopeful vision for the
6:13
future and not just lament all the time
6:16
what true is true the total imbalance of
6:19
power on the ground in the region in in
6:23
the global system that explains why we
6:26
are where we are uh uh today another
6:30
reasons for the ra rather length uh
6:34
length of the book is the fact that I
6:36
wanted to bring long
6:39
citations uh from British and American
6:43
politicians in particular both those who
6:46
supported Zionism but also those who
6:49
opposed Zionism it's amazing to read
6:53
statements by both sides of the uh
6:57
argument from 1900 or 1905 which are
7:01
really prophetic are really prophetic in
7:05
the sense of understanding what the uh
7:09
support for a Jewish state in Palestine
7:12
would do to the Palestinians and to the
7:14
area as a
7:15
whole understanding what kind of
7:18
complication it would create for the
7:20
Jewish communities wherever they are so
7:24
you have these people with you know
7:27
ability which is incredible at a given
7:30
moment in history to see beyond the
7:33
moment to see into the future and it
7:36
gives you a sense and I think anas that
7:40
connects well to what you was saying
7:41
that we are still in that historical P
7:44
chapter it's not we don't have a closure
7:47
for that uh chapter and I could call
7:49
this chapter the Western idea that the
7:55
problem of the Jews in the West can only
7:58
be solved by colonizing Palestine at the
8:02
expense of the Palestinians and how
8:04
would we continue to defend this
8:07
horrible idea and uh uh give uh immunity
8:12
to its practices and policies against
8:16
the Palestinians wherever they
8:20
are and although I was familiar myself
8:24
with with many chapters uh in the
8:27
history both of Palestine and of
8:30
Zionism uh I was still uh uh surprised
8:34
to be reminded of certain uh stages in
8:38
the progress of the lobbying for Zionism
8:42
which really ring through today and
8:44
relevant today for instance the fact
8:48
that Zionism began as an Evangelical
8:52
Christian project before it became a
8:54
Jewish one that the whole idea that the
8:57
return of the Jews to Palestine is is
8:59
part of a Divine scheme that will
9:02
precipitate the second coming of the
9:04
Messiah the resurrection of the dead and
9:07
maybe the beginning of 1,000 years of
9:10
Jesus's rule on on earth now it was not
9:14
every Evangelical stream in thinking
9:17
that thought that way but it was an an
9:20
important part of Evangelical
9:22
Christianity beginning in Britain and
9:25
transformed into the United States by
9:28
people at who first you could call them
9:31
theologians rather than politicians but
9:34
very soon some of them became
9:36
politicians of importance and they
9:40
especially in Britain they provided a
9:43
certain theological justification for a
9:46
new Imperial thinking not just about
9:49
Palestine but of the whole Eastern
9:50
Mediterranean the mashrek because the
9:53
British uh uh basic view on the Eastern
9:57
Mediterranean throughout the 19th
10:00
century was that although the Ottoman
10:03
Empire that ruled that area was in
10:05
Decline it was better to keep it intact
10:08
because a disintegration of the Empire
10:11
would create a a a struggle for spoils
10:15
among the European powers and could lead
10:17
to something which would be called later
10:18
on a World War which in fact is what
10:21
what happened but the pressure of those
10:26
Evangelical Christians who to together
10:29
with British imperialists who thought
10:32
that it's time to seed from the Ottoman
10:35
Empire the Eastern
10:37
Mediterranean brought together first of
10:40
all a non-jewish support for the idea of
10:44
what they would call The Return of the
10:46
Jews to Palestine and the replacement of
10:50
the Palestinian with a Jewish Kingdom or
10:54
state or Republic depends of who we are
10:57
talking about now it means that already
11:00
throughout the 19th century people were
11:03
discussing the fate of Palestine and the
11:06
Palestinians without the Palestinians
11:08
being aware that are becoming a regional
11:11
project or even a global project of
11:14
colonization and I was surprised to see
11:18
how much this kind of thinking
11:20
influenced the early Jewish uh
11:22
supporters of Zionism because I always
11:24
thought that this was were kind of too
11:27
discrete projects that had nothing to do
11:30
with it but then I I read a diary by one
11:33
of the most important early Zionist
11:36
elazar Ben Yuda who reinvented the
11:38
Hebrew language he was very much
11:41
influenced by Evangelical
11:44
Christianity and changed his mind about
11:46
Zionism in the sense that he said yes we
11:50
might we should redefine Judaism not as
11:53
a religion but as a nationalism but I
11:56
think they are right it should happen in
11:58
Palestine and and not anywhere else so
12:00
there was an impact of that kind of
12:03
thinking the Imperial thinking the
12:05
theological thinking coming from
12:08
Christianity on the very nent very small
12:12
number of Jewish intellectuals who
12:14
thought that the best solution for
12:17
anti-Semitism in Central and Eastern
12:19
Europe was to uh create or establish a
12:23
Jewish State uh in in Palestine so
12:26
that's the beginning which as you can
12:29
probably understand today is not just an
12:33
intellectual uh or an interesting
12:35
forgotten chapter of the past it's still
12:38
a very relevant Alliance that is still
12:42
working today by the way not only in the
12:44
United States where we are all familiar
12:47
with the term Christian Zionist as a
12:49
Lobby that supports Israel you go to
12:51
Sweden you go to Denmark you go to
12:54
Norway Christian Zionism is a life in
12:57
Europe and in the united k om as well as
13:01
as an idea that uh uh supports Israel
13:05
unconditionally in the name of the same
13:08
theology that began the whole Zionist
13:11
project to my surprise when I was in
13:13
Malaysia I met leaders of the Christian
13:16
Community in Malaysia and they also are
13:18
very much under the influence of
13:20
Christian zionists uh uh in in that
13:23
respect so this is an alliance of the
13:26
past which is still steadfast
13:29
uh uh uh today the second uh uh again
13:34
note in the book that reminded me of
13:37
things that I forgotten and I thought
13:39
are very relevant for today is the
13:43
insistence of every leading finger
13:47
figure sorry in the anglo-jewish
13:50
community and also in some of the
13:52
western uh Jewish communities people
13:55
with uh status with position
13:59
some of them ministers in in cabinet
14:02
some of them important business figures
14:05
in their society I was surprised to re
14:09
reminded that they made sure that
14:11
everybody would understand that they
14:15
themselves would never go to Palestine
14:19
that they felt safe in Britain that they
14:21
saw no reason whatsoever to create a
14:24
Jewish State because they had a problem
14:26
as an anglo-jewish community
14:29
and farers and more cynically and more
14:33
sinisterly they said if there won't be a
14:36
Jewish state in Palestine the poor Jews
14:39
that are subjected to anti-Semitism in
14:41
Central and Eastern Europe would come to
14:44
Britain God
14:46
forbid and they would are poor we would
14:50
have to take care of them after 1905 the
14:53
sense was that these pows are also Bic
14:57
so they would steer problem for Britain
14:59
as a whole and the Jewish community at
15:02
it uh and uh and therefore it's quite
15:06
incredible to go back to the material
15:08
itself and to see it word by word
15:11
written in explaining to British policy
15:15
makers German policy makers so on this
15:18
is good for Europe because we don't want
15:20
the poor East European Jews to come to
15:24
the west or to the United States when I
15:27
started talking looking for the origins
15:30
of uh uh the pro Zionist Lobby in in the
15:34
United States so uh this is important
15:37
because again it sounds like a distant
15:39
chapter in the past but it's very much
15:42
irrelevant issue today isn't it I mean
15:45
the whole uh uh connection between uh
15:49
the anglo-jewish community and uh Israel
15:52
and this whole uh walking on egg shelves
15:56
when we start we we begin to talk
15:59
earnestly and honestly and actually on
16:03
Against Racism not because we are racist
16:06
that you cannot be an ambassador and
16:08
ambassadress for Israel and at the same
16:11
time claim that all you care is for the
16:14
interest of the Anglo Jewish community
16:16
and anybody who W who points out to to
16:19
this kind of connection is immediately
16:21
branded as an anti-site or in my case as
16:24
a self-hating Jew this is something that
16:28
we should not be afraid to talk about
16:31
because this is very very important I
16:33
won't mention name but if you are
16:35
familiar with what goes on in the labor
16:38
party now a full lobbyist for Israel is
16:42
going to be one of the most powerful
16:44
member of the labor party uh I don't
16:48
want to get into names it's not
16:50
important the name is not important what
16:52
is important that for 100 years people
16:55
who were part of the organization of the
16:58
lobbying for Zionism later for Israel
17:01
also played a very important role in
17:04
British politics and so no contradiction
17:07
in representing the interests of a
17:09
foreign country and a and a foreign
17:12
State and a state that commits crimes
17:14
against humanity and war crimes and at
17:17
the same time serving ASI civil servants
17:21
or politicians of of Britain everybody
17:24
says well when you're going into this
17:26
you are going into the territory of
17:29
conspiracies and that leads us to the
17:31
old accusations of anti-Semitism against
17:34
the Jews no this is why we write books
17:36
like this this is why we insist that
17:39
this is a scholarly work pedantic work
17:43
that is not falling into any conspiracy
17:46
theories is just examining the evidence
17:49
in history to show that this is a
17:52
connection that is problematic not just
17:54
for the Palestinians but also for the
17:57
Jews in Britain and they I think we have
17:59
now a younger generation at least of
18:02
American Jews who fully comprehend and
18:05
understand this problem and fully uh uh
18:09
acknowledge that this has not served
18:11
well the American Jewish Community to be
18:14
uh uh the ambassadors and ambassadors
18:17
for Israel and they just jettisoned
18:20
their connection to Zionism and many of
18:22
them feel that in order to show where
18:25
they are today they also want to take
18:27
full part in the solidarity movement
18:30
with the Palestinians so not just saying
18:33
Judaism is not Zionism our Judaism put
18:36
us in the Forefront in the struggle for
18:39
Liberation and freedom uh uh in in
18:44
Palestine a third point that I wanted
18:47
and I I follow your your clock very
18:49
carefully here so keep it
18:53
alive it helps me um I used to think
18:58
that Socialism or social democracy and
19:02
labor movement in Britain would go
19:05
together with universal values that I
19:09
cherish human rights civil rights
19:13
workers
19:14
rights and it's only when I went into
19:17
the history of the labor
19:21
party before the creation of the state
19:23
of Israel and especially in the early
19:26
years of statehood when the the labor
19:29
friends of Israel were established in
19:31
the early
19:33
1950s that they realized how important
19:37
was this today I think we'll call it
19:40
gaslighting you know this Social
19:43
Democratic gaslighting what do I mean by
19:45
this you have really the the pillars of
19:49
British socialism really the pillars of
19:52
British socialism who for instance would
19:55
definitely condemn aparte in South
19:58
Africa
20:00
fully supporting Israel to the extent
20:04
that any attempt to show as rather and
20:08
her friends would uh uh any sympathy
20:13
empathy a wish to repes with the
20:15
Palestinians the wish to represent the
20:17
Palestinian cause would immediately be
20:19
destroyed by these
20:22
particular leaders of socialism in
20:25
Britain it's it gives you some kind of a
20:29
more profound and deeper understanding
20:31
for the Jeremy Corbin or the attack on
20:34
Jeremy Corbin it's not a new phenomenon
20:37
there are Roots there of of social
20:40
Democrats by the way not only in Britain
20:42
in Europe as a whole providing a shield
20:45
of immunity to Zionism in the name of
20:48
Social Democratic principles this is far
20:51
worse than the new than the right-wing
20:54
support for Israel the right the fascist
20:56
right-wing support that Israel enjoys to
20:58
today and maybe enjoyed a bit in the
21:00
past is easy to challenge is easy to
21:04
deal with because you immediately say
21:06
you see who the Allies are of this state
21:09
who the allies of this ideology but when
21:11
the ideology that uh is being mentioned
21:15
and quoted to explain why Israel is
21:18
supported is one that you can identify
21:21
with as a human
21:23
being H then it becomes a bit more
21:25
complicated and it was very difficult I
21:28
think for anybody challenging the the
21:31
support for Zionism and support for
21:33
Israel when it came from either liberal
21:36
or Social Democrat uh circles and and I
21:40
wasn't aware of this how deep it went
21:43
into the labor party even before the
21:46
creation of the conservative friends of
21:48
Israel who are now the most import
21:50
important Lobby for Israel in Britain
21:52
but how important the labor friends of
21:54
Israel not to mention the specific
21:57
outfits
21:59
that joined the TU the trade Union
22:02
Council the trade unions in Britain were
22:06
uh giving affiliation to pre-state
22:09
Zionist organization whose role was
22:12
before 1948 to advocate for Zionism but
22:16
the is Israel did not dismantle them
22:18
because it turned it into part of the
22:21
lobbying for Zionism in for Israel in
22:24
Britain so you had pure Zionist
22:27
organization
22:29
having full affiliation and membership
22:32
in the TU while any attempt to even
22:34
create a at the beginning a solidarity
22:37
circle with the Palestinians in the
22:39
trade unions was rejected as political
22:43
and unacceptable un unbelievable if you
22:45
go back to it and this is a time when
22:48
people already visited Palestine and
22:50
Israel it was at the time when people
22:52
began to understand what was going on of
22:54
course it became a bit more difficult
22:56
when it was easier to visit and easier
22:58
to get information what was going on but
23:01
even then it was not yet over for the
23:04
labor party to show unconditional
23:07
support for oppression apartheid
23:10
colonization ethnic lensing and nowaday
23:13
to not to speak openly and bravely about
23:15
the genocide in Palestine shame on them
23:18
and shame on this leadership that
23:20
doesn't even have one word to say
23:29
but it has an historical uh roote uh uh
23:33
for this and I think it's very important
23:36
finally I think that uh I want also to
23:40
be optimistic because it's very clear
23:42
that what I was talking about up up to
23:44
now is a huge powerful Alliance first
23:48
included Britain then the United States
23:50
then multinational
23:52
corporation the Palestinians really I
23:54
mean were
23:55
facing an alliance so powerful
23:59
economically politically
24:01
strategically and it's all focused on
24:04
the idea of this project of displacement
24:06
and replacement displacing the
24:08
Palestinian and replacing them it's it's
24:11
it's almost incredible that they are
24:13
still there fighting showing resilience
24:16
and resistance this is also what my book
24:19
taught me once and more once more that
24:21
how how unbelievable is the fact that
24:24
Palestine and the Palestinians are still
24:26
there it's not taken for granted
24:29
but what brings me hope and for me hope
24:32
I want to explain that nobody
24:35
misunderstand what I mean for me hope
24:37
for me is the end of Israel and the
24:39
creation of a free Palestine from The
24:41
River To The
24:41
[Applause]
24:51
Sea what brings me hope is the fact that
24:55
uh the powerful Lobby and the Alliance
24:59
were very effective when it comes to
25:01
politics from
25:02
above they from the very early on they
25:05
understand that all they have to do is
25:06
follow politicians at the early stages
25:09
of their career making sure that they
25:11
are allies in the later stage in their
25:14
career using money influence uh uh
25:17
intimidation if needed in order to get
25:20
whether the American or the British
25:23
political system to abide by their
25:27
demands how ever they find it very
25:30
difficult and always found it very
25:31
difficult to deal with the Civil Society
25:34
they know don't know how to deal with
25:36
alternative media today they have no
25:38
idea how to deal with it they don't know
25:40
how to deal with civil society with
25:43
communal action with boycott initiatives
25:47
with divestment initiatives all their
25:50
methodology all the Weaponry that the
25:53
all the Armory that they have is useless
25:56
it seems against people that should
25:58
gives us hope and the hope is that
26:02
probably this is not the only issue uh
26:06
in which the politicians of this
26:08
particular era are not representing us
26:10
well I don't remember as an
26:13
historian at an age like this when
26:16
politics and I'm generalizing of course
26:18
that politicians were of such a low
26:21
caliber intellectually morally
26:26
corrupt shallow reductionist people who
26:29
have very little to offer their society
26:32
apart from their own careers it doesn't
26:34
matter which party it's really uh a a a
26:38
the age of of the the the the the the
26:41
lack of any status for the politicians
26:45
so their ideas of how to deal with
26:48
global warming how to deal with poverty
26:51
how to deal with issues that really
26:53
trouble people are not very interesting
26:56
and are not very successful and are not
26:58
very effective because they don't care
27:00
about these issues they care about their
27:02
own careers it's not surprising that
27:05
also their ideas about Palestine are
27:08
irrelevant and are harmful and negative
27:11
so we should hope that when people
27:13
struggle against this Lobby they're also
27:16
struggling against Lobby other lobbies
27:19
that make their life miserable and un
27:22
and disable them to solve problems of
27:25
poverty ecological danger in injustices
27:29
in society beyond the question of
27:31
Palestine I think this explains why so
27:34
many people are galvanized behind the
27:36
Palestine question as symbolizing
27:38
struggle against injustices anywhere
27:40
else in the world as well and Palestine
27:43
is an indication that there is a
27:47
different kind of politics that we would
27:50
wish for ourselves for our next
27:52
Generations and that's why so many hopes
27:55
are pinned on the Palestinian Liberation
27:57
movement sometimes probably un
28:00
unreasonably actually that Palestine
28:02
would be the you know the Paragon state
28:05
that all the other failed decolonized
28:07
world uh was unable to to fulfill but it
28:10
explains because this isn't a demand for
28:13
a different kind of politicians and a
28:17
different kind of the idea what is
28:18
universal justice this is the Big
28:20
Challenge the icj and the IC are having
28:23
it's not it's not a coincidence that for
28:27
the first time they at least provided a
28:29
stage for what people think about
28:31
Palestine and not governments if you
28:33
think about it and they did it
28:35
intentionally I talked with them some of
28:37
them they did it intentionally they
28:39
wanted to show that trib International
28:42
tribunals are also listening to people
28:44
not just to the politics of power
28:46
hopefully this is just the beginning of
28:49
a process that would lead for a better
28:52
world first of all for the Palestinians
28:54
and then for all of us thank you
