Video Infoblog: Queen Rania Al Abdullah of Jordan on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan" | full interview
5 May 2024
Watch the full version of Margaret Brennan's interview with Queen Rania Al Abdullah of Jordan that aired on May 5, 2024, on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan."
"Face the Nation" is America's premier Sunday morning public affairs program. The broadcast is one of the longest-running news programs in the history of television, having debuted Nov. 7, 1954, on CBS. Every Sunday, "Face the Nation" moderator and CBS News senior foreign affairs correspondent Margaret Brennan welcomes leaders, newsmakers, and experts to a lively round table discussion of current events and the latest news.
Transcript
Intro
0:00
your majesty thank you for making time for us thank you it's a pleasure to be here Jordan has two field hospitals
0:06
inside of Gaza Jordan is helping to get Aid into the strip the UN estimates that
0:12
at least 15,000 children have been killed since this War began in October what is the
0:19
impact in the region well look first of all um Gaza in the last 7 months has has
0:25
become unrecognizable uh cities have turned into Wasteland growing happy children have been reduced to skin and
0:32
bone 2.3 million people in a short in a small area have been going through hell
0:37
every single day 1.7 million of them have been displaced and not just once some of them several times and they're
0:44
currently living in conditions that are unimaginable in makeshift shelters and Tents on the street uh UNICEF was
0:50
hearing from teenage girls saying that they would rather be killed than live under these conditions and so many have
0:56
been killed almost 35,000 people 17 % of them women and children as you mentioned
1:03
almost 15,000 children Gaza has the highest unfortunately and sadly the
1:08
highest uh cohort of child amputees and every couple of days we're losing children to starvation we in the Arab
1:16
world have been seeing this war live streamed every single day and it has become Central to our lives and it's
1:24
been quite devastating and the impact has been obviously people are so
1:29
traumatized by what they're seeing every day we were traumatized by October 7th but then this war we feel is not you
1:37
know Israel is is saying that this war is a defensive War obviously was instigated by October 7th but the way
1:43
it's being fought is not in defensive way you know 60% of homes have been uh
1:49
destroyed 80% of schools and Health Care Centers have been destroyed are we to
1:54
believe that there were Hamas operatives in each one of those you know so so you know the the impact has been very very
2:02
big on us and I think people I'm not sure if your viewers know this but people view the us as being party to
2:09
this war because you know Israeli officials say that without a US support they couldn't launch this war you know
2:15
you you turn off the tap and the weapons dry out so and so there's been anger in our part of the world not at just what
2:22
what's happening but at the world's reaction when we see um these violations
2:27
human rights violations and International law violations and we're watching the world letting it happen
2:33
when October 7th happened the world rightfully condemned it and took strong action and strong positions we are
2:39
outraged that this the same is not happening when when Palestinians are getting killed and so there is the sense
2:45
of the selective application of humanitarian law in a sense of unfairness a sense of Our Lives don't
2:51
matter as much and you know this is something I think that's creating a
2:56
certainly causing uh a great loss of credibility to the US but also causing
3:02
us to rethink our uh our view of the world order you know as as cruel and and
3:08
and ugly as the war in Gaza is the state of our rules based World Order is looking exponentially worse people are
3:14
looking at Gaza as reflection of the rest of the world where you know the
3:20
rules don't matter where international law doesn't matter where un resolutions can be ignored and I think that that's a
3:26
very very dangerous uh precedent because actions like these they're not only a betrayal for the people of Gaza but
3:32
they're actually a betrayal of the safeguards that are meant to keep us all safe you said people back home see the
3:39
United States as complicit in what's happening they see it as an enabler you
3:44
know uh so clearly the US is the country that has most leverage over the us over
3:51
Israel and um like I said you know it is the the biggest allly and biggest
3:57
supporter and the Arab world is getting the rest of the world actually is getting mixed messages so on the one
4:02
hand the US is demanding that more Aid rightfully go back into Gaza at the same
4:07
time they're they're denying that the starvation is intentional on the one hand they are outraged by the uh attacks
4:14
on the a convoys but at the same time they're denying that Israel is violating
4:19
International humanitarian law there's an expression of concern over civilian deaths but at the same time there's a
4:26
provision of offensive weapons uh to is Israel that are used against Palestinians so in a sense you know you
4:34
when you try so hard to thread the needle you can risk dropping the ball you can risk letting your values and
4:40
principles unravel and and that has a a deep impact so for example even when the
4:46
US allowed the UN Security Council resolution on the ceasefire to pass the next day there is announcement saying
4:52
that it's not it's not legally binding un resolutions are absolutely legally
4:57
binding and these legal Frameworks are there to ensure that all countries adhere to a standard of conduct they're
5:04
either applicable to everyone or they're not either everyone is accountable or no one is so the next time a country Breaks
5:11
the Rules you know and the US comes and tries to apply more Authority those countries are going to say well you made
5:16
an exception here so why apply to us so I think people um you know we are seeing
5:23
Israel falling short of a moral standard after moral stand legal standard after
5:28
legal standard in the world is refusing to act so I think Gaza now is like a
5:34
microcosm of our New World Disorder of the breakdown of international Norms of
5:40
the return of Might is right and I think that's very dangerous not just for our
5:46
region but for the entire world well you know recently President Biden just about a month ago uh warned prime minister
Do you believe the US is starting to use the leverage
5:52
Netanyahu that US policy would change if Israel's behavior and conduct in this
5:58
war didn't change do you believe the US is starting to use the leverage you say it has well look
6:05
there's definitely been a change in tone and language and you're right the president has been warning and has been
6:11
trying very hard to persuade Netanyahu for example to not enter Rafa but we've seen time and again Israeli officials
6:18
not heeding the warnings or counsel or advice of allies so I think it's time
6:23
that the International Community including the US really used its political leverage to compel is Israel
6:28
to end the war and to let Aid in uh how and it's and it's by taking measures
6:34
right so again it's by standing up for international law saying for example the building of illegal settlements is is
6:41
wrong and it has to stop it's by saying that you know we are not going to provide you with offensive weapons it's
6:48
by saying um we're not going to continue to use our veto to not hold Israel
6:53
account accountable when it breaks the law diplomatic pressure is also very
6:58
very important so there are many tools that the US has in order to compel Israel to do the right thing and I think
7:04
for the sake of our world the us maybe Israel's most closest Ally but a good
7:11
friend holds a friend accountable you don't give them a card blanch when they're not doing the right thing and I
7:16
think it does Israel a great disservice when we don't hold it accountable because it creates a culture of impunity
7:23
and that has been the situation for decades where they feel that they can or they can be the exception to every
7:28
International law and standard either you're part of the International Community and you abide by the rules or
7:35
you're a pariah State that's not that's made an exception to to every rule so so I think that if you care about your ally
7:43
you will actually take action to set them and that that would be for Israel's best interest in the long term in the
Palestinian mothers love their children just as much as Israeli mothers
7:50
beginning of this war you were outspoken about the humanitarian concerns very early on and you are the queen of Jordan
7:58
but you're also Palestinian you argued people need to understand that Palestinian mothers love their
8:04
children just as much as Israeli mothers why do you feel like that needed to be
8:10
said well because you know for decades the dehumanization of Palestinians has
8:17
been an intentional approach that Israel adopted in order to numb people to Palestinian suffering you know um it's
8:24
actually quite surprising to see just how deep the undercurrents of dehumanization ations run um Israelis
8:32
have pretty much you know Arabs are generally accused of teaching hate and Palestinians as well but it's Israelis
8:40
have actually walled Palestinians out of sight and out of mind kind of reduced them to nameless faceless security
8:47
threats that you have to defend yourself against they don't learn about Palestinians they never introduced to them as real people any attempts to
8:54
bring Palestinian stories into books are are barred H so so this sense of and and
9:01
and we actually saw that you know among the people blocking Aid into Palestinians were young teenagers I
9:07
can't understand how anybody could be so indifferent to human suffering you're talking now about some of the protests
9:13
that are trying to interrupt the shipment of Aid into G I'm talkinging about a deep culture an
9:21
omnipresent um perspective about Palestinians that
9:26
says that Palestinians are subhuman that they are violent because of something intrinsic in them it's something in
9:33
their nature it's it's it's not because uh there is violence inflicted on them
9:38
and so when you reduce people to a violent uh people who are who are
9:43
different to us so they're not moral like us so therefore it's okay to inflict uh pain and suffering on them
9:49
because they don't feel it the same way we do it allows people to do bad things that's that's the mental loophole of
9:56
dehumanization it allows you to justify the unjustified to do bad things and still see yourself
10:01
as a good person and we're seeing that happen in the case of
10:07
Palestinians they they they don't feel the Palestinians that's why I said that mothers love their children the same way
10:13
because you know it allows you to do bad things and not really have a moral dilemma with it and that's what H what's
10:19
happening but you know dehumanization works both ways because when you lose your ability to empathize towards the
10:26
other side you become hardened yourself it degrades your own um your own humanity and we're seeing this happening
10:32
in Israeli Society where they're become so hardened and I just want to urge
10:38
people to to understand that this narrative this propaganda that's been
10:43
fed this anti- Palestinian racism that Palestinians do not want peace that
10:49
Palestinians only understand the language of violence and force that is incorrect to see Hamas as representing
10:55
Palestinian people you're saying is wrong absolutely wrong and also just to just to point out that most of the
11:01
people alive in Gaza today were not alive when Hamas was elected they were either CH they were not born or they
11:07
were children at the time so absolutely Hamas does not represent the majority of
11:12
uh of Palestinians and if Palestinians hate Israelis it is not because of their religion or their identity it's because
11:19
of the fact that they've only interacted with them as enforcers of a military State they have only known them through
11:25
their chck checkpoints and bullets and guns it's not something that's inherently in them against Jewish people
11:32
in fact I always try to remind people that you know we have coexisted um um
11:38
Christians Muslims and Jewish people for the longest time that's where the three monotheistic religions were born and uh
11:46
prior to the birth of Zionism the Muslim majority in Palestine lived in complete
11:51
friendship and tolerance with the with the Jewish minority there was never an issue of anti-Semitism there well you
11:57
know historians will argue anti-Semitism has been present throughout history right and it is hard for people to hear
12:05
some of what you are saying and not react in that way where they hear a
12:10
characterization of criticism of the Israeli government or the Israeli military and see where you're separating
12:17
from Jewish people a lot of people don't hear a difference anti-Semitism is
12:22
absolutely present and it's and it's been on the rise it's been on the Surge and it is the worst kind of
12:30
bigotry it is pure hatred and I always say that Muslims had to be have to be at
12:35
the Forefront of fighting anti-Semitism because islamophobia is the other side of the same disease and it's also on the
12:42
rise Judaism is a a religion of Peace it is the the first of the three
12:47
monotheistic religions and as Muslims you know we it was it was Judaism
12:53
Christianity and Islam we all believe in the same God and the issue is when you try to conflate anti-israeli policy with
13:02
anti-Semitism right anti-Semitism is when you persecute somebody or you uh
13:08
discriminate against somebody based on their Jewish identity Israel is a state it has political policy political
13:15
parties so you can criticize the state of Israel but that's not necessarily
13:21
anti-Semitism so when people stand up and speak against the war in Gaza when
13:26
they're talking about the um speak against the Collective punishment when you deprive people of food as a weapon
13:33
of War when uh when entire population is displaced when there's indiscriminate bombing that is not anti-Semitism that
13:40
is speaking against Israeli policy and I think it would be wrong to hold the
13:46
Jewish Community responsible for the actions of the or the policies of Israel
13:52
and many Jewish people absolutely reject this this conflation they they they want to
13:59
protect their Jewish identity and say that they the Jewish faith has existed U
14:05
3,000 years before the birth of the state of Israel so it it predates the state of Israel and and uh to conflate
14:14
the religious aspect with the politics I don't think serves anybody and it certainly doesn't bring us closer to
14:19
peace well let me ask you about that because you know there protest at colleges across the United States here
Protests at colleges across the US
14:26
in New York other cities in solidarity with pal Ians in Gaza but there is also this perception among some students that
14:33
they are unsafe because they are for example Jewish students what do you
What do you think of the protests
14:39
think of the protest and are you surprised to see Young Americans protesting like this first of all I
14:45
think it's important to point out that Law and Order are Paramount for everybody and so it is important for
14:52
students to abide by the rules of the campus to not disrupt classes to not disrupt other students exper College
14:59
experience at the same time as I said there is a rise in anti-Semitism and it's wrong for any student to have to
15:05
feel unsafe on campus that being said we need to emotions are running high and I
15:10
think people are are are losing sight of what these these students are protesting
15:16
for them the issue of Gaza and the Palestinian conflict is more about social justice they are standing up for
15:22
human rights for international law for the principles that underpin international law they're standing up
15:27
for their the future they're going to inherit so they're asking their universities to divest from an illegal
15:33
occupation but at the same time and may maybe more importantly they are suggesting that there is more to the
Why do you think young people feel this way
15:39
story than we have been told that there is that the narrative that we have been fed that that that Israel is the victim
15:48
and the Palestinians are are violent people who deserve what's happening to them that that is not the entire story
15:55
why do you think that's happening on college campuses why do you think young people feel this way well actually it's a lot of people feel this way but
16:02
college campuses have always been the site of uh of activism uh you know young
16:07
students are learning about these issues at that age you want to stand up you're more idealistic you want to stand up for
16:14
values you believe in you're you're outraged when when things are not going right when when when what you're taught
16:21
and what you believe should be the right thing isn't happening and so they're expressing their views but I think to uh
16:29
to paint all these students and all these protests in a in a broad paintbrush and to vilify them uh as
16:36
being you know Pro Hamas or Pro terrorism or anti-semitic I think that's
16:42
inaccurate and I think it's it's somewhat patronizing to some of these students because a lot of people are
16:47
saying well you know they don't even know what they're protesting they're just protesting for the sake of it a lot of them are well read thoughtful young
16:54
individuals who know exactly what they're protesting they are protesting for Justice and um do you think it will
17:01
change US foreign policy well I I I don't know if it will change US foreign policy it's certainly a Grassroots
Will the protests change US foreign policy
17:07
movement and an expression of a generation that feel that there is a contradiction between um the values and
17:14
principles that they were taught that this country stands for and what's actually happening on the ground and
17:20
again let's not forget that there are um a substantial number of Jewish students
17:26
who are involved in these protests and the vast majority of these protests want to be peaceful they don't want to be
17:32
destructive um and I think the most important thing is to have genuine engagement uh W with with these students
17:39
to have an open debate to hear from them and and explain to them you a lot of
17:45
times they're saying well these kids need education I think we need to go into this knowing that we need education
17:50
as well so it's a give and take H and and we saw an example in Brown University where that kind of healthy
17:56
debate ended up you know sort of calming things down and where
18:02
was win-win situation so the more you use Force I think the more it inflames uh the situation how are young people in
How are young people in Jordan thinking
18:11
Jordan thinking about this right now I mean what is the sentiment in terms of
18:17
the American unconditional support for the government of Israel I have to say in one word there's outrage you know
18:24
there is outrage because you know for most young people even those who maybe
18:31
were against uh American foreign policy or whatever or disagreed with it we always looked up to the US you know as a
18:38
country of a democratic country with Democratic Values with application of
18:43
law with freedom of speech uh with you know human rights Etc and as I said you
18:51
know young people are now feeling extremely disillusioned uh how can this be happening while the US is allowing it
18:58
to happen while the rest of the world is is allowing it to happen blatant disregard for international law and and
19:06
and just you know when the US uh when when Israel says you know that we are
19:12
not targeting civilians and then you look at the reality on the ground that we're seeing with our own two eyes and
19:18
we're see and by the admission of uh some Israeli intelligence uh uh sources
19:24
they were saying that they often attack their targets at night in the their homes with their families which has led
19:31
to the deaths of thousands of women and children we have seen wild widely spread
19:36
reports about Israel using uh AI systems to generate the largest number of targets
19:42
prioritizing a quantity over quality and so the really by taking Humanity out of
19:49
the equation in their calculus it's okay to flatten an entire neighborhood or kill an entire family to get one Target
19:57
and so the whole principle of proportionality and distinction between uh between civilian and combatant has
20:03
has been abandoned in this war and you know when when Israelis are telling us you know they're dying because Hamas is
20:10
using them as human Shields well you know you have a place like like Gaza
20:15
which is the one of the most densely populated places in the world being hit by an unprecedented number of dumb bombs
20:23
which are untargeted unguided bombs or massive bombs which are the 2,000 lb bomb
20:29
to put it perspective in fighting Isis the us only used one such bomb because
20:34
it's known that it has a very high risk of killing civilians so you hit the most densely populated place on Earth with an
20:43
unprecedented number of unguided bombs and massive bombs and we are supposed to
20:48
believe that Israel is trying to avoid killing civilians it just doesn't it it
20:53
doesn't add up you've had protests in Jordan yes outside Embassy and the like
Protests in Jordan
20:59
Amnesty International says Jordan security arrested at least 1500 people for
21:04
protesting why are you concerned there is a threat to the stability of Jordan not at all I we know since the beginning
21:11
of this war we've had thousands of people go out I think we've had about 1700 demonstrations of people going out
21:19
advocating and and and standing out in solidarity with the Palestinian people and you know at the end of the day GE
21:26
and most of these uh demonstrations have been friction free with the police and
21:31
um but the end of the day Jordan is a country of Law and Order so as long as people AB are abiding by the law as I
21:37
said with the demonstrations here then they are free to protest it's only when we see vandalism or attacks on public
21:43
and private property that the security forces obviously have responsibility to come in step in but uh again Jordan has
21:52
been probably at the Forefront of countries that have stood up um and spoken openly about out in defense of
22:00
what's happening and you know in defense of Palestinians and and that's not just
22:05
the leadership but that's also the people themselves the people the government and the leadership so we're we're on the same um page on this well
22:14
the Director of National Intelligence in this country uh of real Haynes testified saying there will be a generational
22:20
impact from the war in Gaza and that was also a gesture to Terror recruitment um
22:26
How concerned are you that that is what may happen to some of these young people
22:32
who you say are just inundated with images of what's Happening you know like
What may happen to young people
22:38
I said it's it's it's it's not just the people who are on the extreme that that
22:43
are being enraged by this it's people who are in the middle as well people who
22:49
are westernized people who studied here people who who are suddenly just looking at the world and saying you know they're
22:56
so disillusioned they're saying you know clear clearly there are different standards that humanitarian law is
23:01
applied selectively and that our lives don't matter and that it's okay for for
23:06
you know almost 15,000 children to be killed 19,000 to be orphaned it's it's okay for for you know the infrastructure
23:13
to be literate it's okay to use to stop the delivery of Aid and food to an
23:20
entire population that is collective punishment it's a war crime and it's happening and so the young people are
23:28
saying you know I guess the West doesn't like us so so in my opinion this is
23:34
probably one of the most radical large sorry largest recruitment event that
23:42
we've seen in recent history because it's turned a lot of people away and it's making people feel
23:49
like there's just no justice in this world and that is a very dangerous place to be that is what you were describing is
23:56
what defense secretary Austin warned Israel about that you could have
24:02
a tactical win and a strategic loss in the long term that's what I hear you saying that this will lead to more
24:07
terror recruitment absolutely and I I again I do not we need to ask ourselves
Is this war making Israel safer
24:13
this the simple question is this war making Israel safer is it making our world safer you know I would argue after
24:23
35,000 K people dead after the obliteration of the civilian
24:28
infrastructure in uh in in Gaza after the violations of so much after the
24:35
rhetoric that we're hearing you know uh from Israeli officials calling Palestinians Human animals or saying
24:42
when the Prime Minister says that Palestinians are children of Darkness that they only understand the rules of
24:47
the Jungle you know when officials say we need to find a more effective way
24:53
than death to inflict suffering on Palestinians how is that making Israel safer I mean you know how this is we
25:01
need to create you peace is not about politics only it's about people it's about culture it's about state of mind
25:08
it's about choosing tolerance over suspicion it's about choosing compromise and Reconciliation over the false
25:15
promise of Victory and the politics inside of Israel has shifted so far to the right
25:23
that it's become acceptable Israelis are surprised when the word word genocide is
25:29
used because they cannot see Palestinians as anything but as a security threat that they deserve what's
25:36
happening to them you know in a poll they're traumatized after October 7th absolutely traumatized I understand that
I challenge myself every day
25:42
and I understand that because of my own background that I would identify with the Palestinian side more and I because
25:49
of that I challenge myself every single day to put myself in the shoes of an Israeli mother who is who has a child
25:57
that's been taken as h or um or any young Israeli who has been
26:03
taught and who's heard of the horrible persecution that the Jewish people have had to endure in
26:09
Europe and uh and I try to empathize and see where they're coming from and
26:14
absolutely you know we need the hostages to go home as soon as possible and we
26:19
need the war to end as soon as possible so the Palestinians can go back to their homes if they have homes left so I
26:26
understand that that what happened in October 7th was traumatic and devastating for Israeli Society but the
26:33
reaction to it has not helped the situation you cannot just rely on your
26:40
this viseral reaction of Retribution and revenge
26:45
um because then you're just you know you're just going into the cycle of violence and just digging deeper in it
26:52
and it's just going to keep getting worse the Israel could have retaliated through Surgical stri stes against Hamas
27:00
but that's not what we're seeing today you know we are seeing a war that is not fought in a defensive way when you were
27:07
at the White House in February uh President Biden mentioned that your husband King Abdullah and two of your children had participated in air drops
27:14
in Gaza but you've referred to the air drops as just drops in an ocean what is
Air drops in Gaza
27:20
needed at this point to reverse the famine right so you know those air drops
27:25
were just acts of desperation and my husband said from day on they are inefficient they're costly and they do
27:30
not begin to meet the needs of uh the people of Gaza but in in our calculus it
27:36
was anything is better than nothing right and uh you know the hunger uh
27:43
figures in the Gaza are unprecedented every single person in Gaza is hungry a quarter of the population is starving
27:51
and uh when we saw that devastating attack on the world Central kitchens
27:57
there was a lot of pressure Israel to allow more food and Aid into Gaza
28:02
there's been a slight uptick but really at the end of the day there's they're
28:07
not even close to meeting the needs of well who could distribute that if the war ended even would Jordan be able to
What is required
28:14
come in and help withu this so so so so this is the thing you know I think what that strike did for example was stop
28:21
eight make lots of agencies suspend their operations because they didn't feel safe working in Gaza and this after
28:28
Israel has has uh has bombed flower Fields agricultural land fishing boats
28:33
basically decimating gaza's ability to feed itself not just today but for years to come and so what is required is a
28:41
permanent ceasefire that allows the hostages to go back home and people to go back to their homes we need to put
28:47
pressure on Israel to open all access points and the land access is the most efficient way to deliver Aid at at scale
28:54
we need to streamline the betting process which now is so um complicated and arbitrary and and you know they
29:01
could find one thing in a truck that they're don't approve and the whole truck has to go back and uh and the last
29:08
thing is that we need to allow Aid workers safe access within Gaza so that they can actually deliver the aid to the
29:15
people that need it but if we do not flood uh Gaza with Aid soon then we are
29:20
going to be facing a mass famine and I don't know how the world just is happy
29:25
doing that it's just it's it's a major stain in our global Consciousness to see this happening in slow motion and not do
29:31
something about it Jordan has had a peace treaty with Israel since 1994 if
Will peace hold
29:36
Israel goes into Southern Gaza into Raa as the Prime Minister says he intends to do will peace hold as you said we've had
29:44
peace with Israel since 94 and Jordan always honors the commitments that signs
29:49
up to in peace agreements we will always be on the side of peace and diplomacy but but diplomacy requires trust and a
29:56
lot of that trust has been eroded over the years because of violations against people in razan the West Bank and uh and
30:04
because of the undermining of the Jordanian custodianship of the Christian and Muslim sites in Jerusalem which are
30:11
part of this agreement what do you mean by that what's happened uh well time and again uh you know we have violations
30:18
against Christian sites and Muslim sites by Israeli troops who are not allowing people to go in who are arresting people
30:25
who are not allowing people to pray we're seeing that happening all the time and so this is constantly undermining
30:32
the hashmic role and custodianship of these holy sites and so um so there is
30:39
an issue with that and when it when it comes to rafah the world you know there are ongoing daily strikes on ra as we
30:47
speak but if there was to be a fullscale Invasion uh then you know the world has warned that there will be a blood blood
30:53
bath and for the simple reason that half the population of Gaza is now Sheltering in we're talking about 50,000 people per
31:00
square mile and since the beginning of this war there was they were pushed
31:06
systematically further and further south RAF is the end of the line there's nowhere else for them to go there's only
31:11
a six square mile piece of land that could considered safe zone so they have
31:17
nowhere to go and um I don't know how Israel could go in surgically without
31:23
causing a massive number of uh civilian deaths and and so I think the world
31:29
really needs to compel Israel not to do it your majesty thank you for your time
