Video Infoblog: Strip Away the Lies: Israel’s Naked Colonialism Nears Its End, w/ Prof Joseph Massad

Rania Khalek Dispatches

To discuss Israel’s genocide in Gaza and the myths its supporters use to justify it, Rania Khalek was joined by Joseph Massad, Professor of Modern Arab Politics and Intellectual History at Columbia University and the author of many books including “The Persistence of the Palestinian Question,” “Islam In Liberalism” and “Desiring Arabs.” He also writes a bimonthly column in Middle East Eye in English and in Arabi21 in Arabic. This is just part of this episode. The full interview is available for Breakthrough News Members only. Become a member at   / breakthroughnews   to access the full episode and other exclusive content.

Transcript

0:00

this kind of equation that Israel and the West are supporting and defending

0:05

Western values is something I must concede because of course Western values are the values of colonialism and

0:11

genocide this is precisely what Europe especially European liberals have espoused since the late uh 18th century

0:18

and continued to do so throughout the 19th century the support of so-called racialized democracy in the US while

0:25

supporting despera ISM for non- brown uh uh and for non-white people whether brown black red or yellow is a major

0:33

sort of Hallmark of European liberal fault um and we see this of course as

0:39

continuing today um we know that of course West Germany after its establishment following the World War II

0:47

learned nothing from its Nazi past uh I you know I have come up with the epithet

0:53

for it as the fourth wife hello everyone I'm Ryan cik and this is dispatches

0:58

eight months into Israel's genocide in Gaza Israel's supporters are getting more desperate than ever in defending

1:04

their Liv streamed mass murder of tens of thousands of civilians they're trotting out their favorite propaganda

1:11

points everything from claiming European roots to the Middle East to accusing

1:16

even Israel's softest critics of anti-Semitism while the West pulls out

1:21

all the stops to protect its satellite settler colony in Palestine would Zionism exposed to much

1:28

of the world for the genocidal Sav aagy its victims always new defined it it's becoming clear this project is not only

1:35

unsustainable but maybe nearing its end to discuss this and more I'm joined by

1:41

Joseph masad professor of modern Arab politics and intellectual history at Columbia University and the author of

1:48

many books including the Persistence of the Palestinian question Islam and liberalism and Desiring Arabs he also

1:55

writes a column in Middle East I in English and in Adobe 21 in Arabic but

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before we jump into it this is just part of this episode the full interview is available to breakthrough news members

2:06

only you can become a member at patreon.com breakthrough news and as

2:11

always be sure to hit the Subscribe button and the Bell so you get a notification whenever we post new content and if you appreciate this show

2:18

you can also donate Below on YouTube Joseph welcome back to the show

2:24

thank you for having me I am it's an honor to be here well it's an honor to have you on and I mean I'm sure anybody

2:31

who follows me on social media knows that I am a big proponent of your

2:37

reading Joseph massad's work your work is excellent your articles are excellent your books are excellent your analysis

2:44

is like no other so I'm really excited to really dig into it as we enter almost into the eighth month of this horrific

2:51

genocide in Gaza and I think a good place to start is you know you in one of

2:56

your articles and you have repeatedly described Zionism as being a genocidal cult whose savagery

3:03

is a sign of its impending doom or defeat I'm quoting you there so I want to start there I want to ask you after

3:11

what we've seen since October 7th but I mean obviously we can say what we've seen since Israel's founding do you

3:17

believe that we're witnessing the end of Zionism I believe we are and I have believed that for quite some time now um

3:24

you know my thinking has always been and of course I'm not alone in this but

3:29

generally when you look at WID settler colonies the only ones that have survived are the ones who are successful

3:36

in absolutely eliminating and annihilating the native population

3:42

either completely or uh basically retaining a small minority of them these

3:47

are the only white Central colonies that have survived we see this in the United States we see it in Canada in Australia

3:54

and in New Zealand we see less of that of course in other places in Latin America of course uh there was a lot of

4:01

intermarriage and still we have several states where Native Americans continue to be a majority especially in the anian

4:08

States but also where there are very few um sort of large white populations

4:16

perhaps outside of Argentina uh that dominate we have more of a mixed

4:21

population uh racially mixed uh you know as the Europeans would say uh in a

4:26

number of these states so they don't survive in the same way although they remain Central colonies it's not in the

4:32

same way uh and we've seen some changes when Eva Morales was perhaps the first

4:37

uh uh Native American to rule any uh of the settler colonies in the Americas uh

4:43

some decade and a half ago took place that was a major event but um Israel of course is more like South Africa Algeria

4:52

Tunisia uh Libya Morocco uh rodesia you know Angola mosambique

4:58

Namibia it's like all of these other setler colonies uh including Kenya for

5:04

example whose end we've witnessed since the early 60s and through the mid 1990s

5:10

and the reason why these settler colonies were dismantled has to do with the fact that the native population has

5:18

always outnumbered or has come to outnumber the white sepor population um

5:25

this is a situation that Zionism was very much aware of which is why in 194 eight they and and even before that they

5:32

had planed since the 1920s in fact to concrete plans that is to expel the

5:38

Palestinian population we know that Zionism had foreseen the necessity of expelling the Palestinians as early as

5:44

Theodore herzo who written about expelling them or at least facilitating their uh sort of uh uh uh removal from

5:52

the country as he put it in his Diaries but also in his subsequent writings but since the 1920s and the 1930s the

6:00

zionists came up with concrete plans on how to bring this about and certainly uh starting on the 30th of November 1947

6:08

the day after the United Nations had passed uh the partition plan resolution

6:13

uh they uh began to put this plan into action and began to expel the Palestinian population so that while the

6:20

Palestinians were more than 70% of the population of Palestine the 30% Jewish

6:26

settlers most of whom had arrived in the uh previous DEC and a half from uh

6:32

Europe uh subsequent to that they began to expel you know uh the majority of

6:38

that population so by the time Israel was finished with the expulsion by December 1948 or at least was the major

6:44

part of the expulsion it had successfully uh evicted more than 90% of

6:50

the Palestinian population in the territories it uh was able to establish

6:55

itself over um this is this was the only way it was able to become uh a Jewish

7:01

majority setler colony and that of course plated the fears and the worries

7:07

of of its uh Jewish supremacist and racist Founders that their settler Colony would survive the way the United

7:15

States Canada Australia and New Zealand had survived um they were concerned they thought they were in a better situation

7:21

than South Africa say or Algeria where the settlers were far outnumbered by uh

7:27

the indigenous populations and that there had been in neither of these Cal colonies or in others major plans to

7:35

evict the population so the zionists were really uh uh uh quite ahead of their time in the sense that they

7:41

thought they were on to something unlike these other African sepa colonies uh

7:47

through the expulsion of the population the major mistake the zionists made of course of the Israelis made in 1967 is

7:55

to conquer the remaining part of Palestine adding to Israel a large

8:00

number of Palestinians not only the indigenous populations of the West Bank

8:05

Gaza and East Jerusalem but also more than half the refugees that they had expelled in 1948 who had taken refuge

8:13

and had been living in the areas they conquered as a result of that the demographic situation changed

8:19

considerably in Israel and began to affect the survivability of the separate

8:26

Colony at least on a demographic basis however um as the decline in the percentage of

8:33

Jews in their majority in Palestine continued between 1967 and

8:38

1990 with all kinds of predictions since the 1980s that Palestinians would very

8:44

soon outnumber the uh Jewish settlers uh kind of a great Cold War uh and Imperial

8:53

gift was given to the zionists by the Triumph of the United States in the Cold War the subsequent collapse of the

9:00

Soviet Union and the immigration of one million Soviets uh many who claimed to

9:08

be Jewish although about 40% of whom subsequently were revealed not to be Jewish according to uh judaic or rical

9:16

criteria nonetheless those one million Jewish uh settlers who came between 1990

9:22

and 2000 to Israel had uh in many ways of course delayed uh this demographic uh

9:30

crisis that Israel was facing and um since then however in the last uh 24

9:37

years or so uh that Advantage uh disappeared and the Palestinians began

9:42

to outnumber uh Israeli Jews and settlers in their country I would say even

9:48

beginning uh you know in 20145 or thereabouts uh we begin to see

9:54

not only uh uh the ascent of the number of Palestinians because of uh perhaps uh

10:02

uh as the Israelis are always concerned about a higher rate uh of reproduction

10:07

but also because of the increasing number of Israeli Jews who began to immigrate outside the country um and

10:14

indeed that imigration from Israel especially to Europe and the United States increased significantly after uh

10:21

the fall of the Soviet Union and the Eastern socialist Camp because many of

10:26

these countries now began to actually is issue passports to Jewish settlers in

10:33

Israel whose families had come from these countries this would include Germany Poland Hungary Romania but even

10:40

Spain uh began to give or Grant uh Zari Jews uh Spanish passports based on uh

10:48

the premise that uh the Jews were of course expelled in 1492 but of course so

10:53

were Muslim Arabs although Spain was not as magnanimous in providing passports to

10:58

them uh the reason why this is important is because of course um Europe is economically far superior uh in terms of

11:06

income and uh uh sort of standard of living than Israel is so more than a

11:12

million Israeli Jews possibly two million applied and received these passports and began to move or spend at

11:20

least half a year in Europe and this became a guarantee for them that should Israel's economic military security or

11:27

any other aspect of its societ to fall they had something very important to fall back on which is

11:34

European or American citizenship which also facilitated their immigration so this is a a very important demographic

11:41

factor in why I think Zionism has been sort of in a way deteriorating and perhaps

11:48

approaching its end uh in the last couple of decades but um what I wanted

11:54

to say is of course the Israelis have become very very aware of the situation which is why they decided that the kind

12:01

of a facade of liberal democracy with which theyve surrounded themselves since 1948 wherein for example Palestinian

12:10

citizens of Israel meaning the 165,000 people who had remained inside the 1948

12:18

borders of Israel after the end of the war who are today upwards of 2.2 million

12:23

people those people actually were given uh the right to vote and Israel citizens

12:29

of course there are upwards of 65 uh laws that discriminate against them in

12:35

the country and that uphold Jewish privilege uh uh in the country uh over

12:42

uh the rights of non-jews even though they are citizens but nonetheless H as a

12:48

result of the fact that this minority of Palestinians who were not expelled got some of these rights Israel could

12:54

actually in many ways uh uh cover itself with a kind of a a camouflage of uh

13:01

liberal Democratic rights however of course after 1967 when it acquired a

13:07

much larger Palestinian population whose territories it conquered uh it refused

13:12

to extend to them uh suffrage at all realizing that they would outnumber and outvote uh uh Jewish supremacist

13:20

governments so as but but still uh this is sort of this was one of the reasons

13:25

why it couldn't Annex these territories without being able to expel the population and there was no opportunity

13:32

to do so between 1967 and October 6 2023 so as a result it couldn't really Annex

13:38

these territories it tried to expel Palestinians from East Jerusalem uh

13:44

which it successfully did with many thousands of them which is why it was able to Annex it but not the rest of the

13:50

territories as a result of that by 2018 Israel was unable to sustain uh this

13:58

Leaf of Democratic liberalism and decided to legislate a new law the

14:03

so-called nation state law which explicitly stated basically that Jews

14:09

have exclusive rights to the land of Israel or to the state of Israel and

14:14

they are the only uh part of the Israeli uh citizenship uh that has the exclusive

14:21

right to self-determination inside the state of Israel what that meant was knowing that

14:28

Israeli Jew are becoming a minority and will increasingly become more of a minority

14:34

suddenly there was a need for an explicit law to state that they will continue to have differential Privileges

14:41

and rights over non-jews in Israel lest the Palestinians think that if if they

14:47

became a majority they would be able to outvote them so we begin to see um a

14:53

transformation in the image that Israel was projecting we saw that many of the pro Zionist Western leaders

14:59

and the extremely Pro Zionist Western media including the New York Times being highly concerned about the explicitness

15:07

of uh this new law and subsequent uh legal and institutional procedures that the Israelis were taking because they

15:14

couldn't help um Israel uh in Western coverage cover up its increasing racism

15:21

in addition to that of course there's the increasing internal disagreements between two major sections of the Jewish

15:27

electorate namely the fanatical fundamentalist uh uh Zionist Jewish

15:34

citizens and the fanatical secularist as Zionist Jewish citizens over the way the

15:39

country should be run juridically we know this has been an ongoing battle

15:45

between the secular and uh and the fundamentalist uh parts of the

15:51

electorate since 1948 as we know the uh fundamentalist and religious Jewish

15:57

political parties insisted in 1948 that Israel uh abide by Jewish law in terms

16:04

of the Jewish state would not for example serve uh non- kosher food that

16:11

uh the Sabbath would be a holiday um and things of that sort um uh and as a

16:17

result of course Israel until today does not even have a constitution because where to do so it would have to

16:23

incorporate uh some of the halik religious Jewish law in it which would

16:29

alienate many of its secular secular uh citizens uh now uh as a result of uh

16:37

this battle since then of course also Israel uh does not have for example

16:42

civil marriage so each uh religious community its religious Affairs its

16:47

marriage uh and divorce are run by its own religious authorities so for uh Jews

16:54

and the only denomination of Judaism that is recognized in Israel is Orthodox

17:00

Judaism reformed Judaism and conservative Judaism are not recognized so Orthodox judaism's uh that the the

17:07

marriage and divorce of Jewish citizens is governed by Jewish law just as for

17:13

Muslims also inside Israel it's governed by uh Muslim uh law and for the

17:19

different Christian Palestinian denominations by their own churches so as a result of course the fundamentalist

17:26

uh religious uh elector today which clearly is a majority that has been bringing to power more and more

17:33

fundamentalist uh and right-wing uh religious uh political parties um has

17:38

had a long presence in Israel this is not new at all however increasingly

17:44

there's been an attempt by the Netanyahu government to bring about even more changes in the laws that would affect

17:51

the rights uh the rights of secular uh fanatical Zionist Jewish citizens in

17:56

Israel which precipitated a large number of uh demonstrations and a larger

18:03

opposition to these policies which preceded uh the subsequent genocidal War

18:08

which Israel declared and launched against the Palestinians on October

18:15

7th I think it's so important that people understand because what you just

18:20

gave are very material reasons why the Israelis behave and do what they do

18:26

because of oftentimes I think it's seen as oh Israel is just like a crazy irrational State I mean there is some

18:31

level of irrationality to some of the behavior and rhetoric of some Israeli leaders um because they look they make

18:38

themselves look very stupid on the international stage but as far as policies towards Palestinian goes

18:43

Palestinians goes there is a reason the Israelis are trying to eliminate as many

18:48

Palestinians as possible in Gaza they have a demographic problem there's a reason they're constantly doing what

18:54

they do in Jerusalem judaizing neighborhoods and kicking people out because they have a demographic problem

18:59

and it goes on and on and on and it's an existential crisis for this country and you just you just laid out out how and

19:05

I'm curious you know Israel basically has to commit this these horrific levels of violence in order to continue to

19:12

exist as a Zionist Colony right as a result you see things like the ICC

19:18

potential arrest orance the icj rulings coming out now you see which is

19:24

something you recently wrote about as as just a very symbolic thing that's sort of meaningless but you see these European countries um recognizing a

19:30

Palestinian State whatever that means at this point all that's to say this is a part of a sort of increasing Pariah

19:36

status of Israel so I'm curious if you think these sorts of measures even if they don't really have any teeth um

19:43

actually mean something when taken together at this point well I mean um let me also put

19:51

Israel in the context of other settler colonies uh during their last years

19:56

right so I don't think what Israel is doing is necessarily irrational I do think there's perhaps a level of

20:02

heightened concern and worry perhaps some desperation we've heard some predictions by Israeli officials

20:08

including Netanyahu over the last five six years saying we're not sure Israel

20:13

Will Survive to its 80th birthday or to its H 100th birthday and this is long before what unfolded after October 7th

20:21

so there's been that kind of worry about all these internal fissures the demographic contraction of Israel and

20:28

the fact that there's no new pool from which to draw on I mean the Six Million or so uh American Jews have never shown

20:36

uh an interest or at least not never has there been a large percentage of

20:43

American Jury that showed an interest in moving to Israel not at all even though

20:48

today for example American Jewish settlers um in Israel I think are

20:54

upwards of uh uh I think 10% um of the population but generally the majority of

21:00

American Jews um uh you know have chosen to remain in their own country uh in the

21:06

United States uh while many of them may support Israel others don't um and even

21:11

those you know we've we've seen sort of over the last 30 years there's been a lot of polls for example about how many

21:18

American Jews had even visited Israel uh usually the polls tell us that uh about

21:24

half uh of American Jury had visited Israel the majority of whom visited it

21:30

as part of a tour of the region that included Egypt or Jordan so a general

21:35

sort of American tourism uh so we don't despite the political support that uh

21:42

private American Jewish organizations who don't necessarily represent American Jews uh might give to Israel and despite

21:50

the fact that even many individual Jews uh uh may be supportive of Israel that

21:55

does not mean that they are zionists or they're going to move to Israel so the only two remaining possibilities for the

22:02

Israelis to bring in more Jews are the small community in France and in

22:08

Argentina um they've been partially successful in both areas but even if they're able to bring in and to convince

22:15

all French Jews and Argentinian Jews to come to Israel the numbers are so minuscule that they won't be able to

22:21

offset this demographic crisis but now having said that what I want to say is also um the uh Mass

22:29

murder and genocidal policies of the Israeli government are not necessarily irrational they may be desperate in a

22:35

certain way in the sense that they must teach the Palestinians a lesson never to

22:41

actually resist Israel again so the issue is not only to eliminate them physically and demographically but also

22:46

to forall the possibility of resistance in the future we see this kind of behavior that I think is quite rational

22:53

uh followed by many of uh the sep Colonial countries um we see this for example by the British

23:01

in Kenya which was one of their last major setal colonies in Africa between the 50s and the early 60s when Kenya

23:09

received its independence the British killed upwards of 100,000 Kenyans the atrocities committed there were

23:14

appalling um they used to even uh barbecue Mau Guerilla uh members alive

23:21

uh uh you know this is of course uh British European uh uh and Enlightenment

23:26

values um we see for example the Portuguese South Africa and the US uh uh

23:32

in order to forall the independence of the Portuguese Central colonies of Angola and mosambi killing upwards of a

23:38

million and a half mamb beans and angolans between 1962 and 2000 uh basically a huge number

23:46

to end the possibility of a Revolt at the end of the central Colony we see that also uh um in places like uh uh

23:56

South Africa between 1989 and 1994 the South African white regime as

24:02

it was negotiating the end of Apartheid killed upwards of 15,000 black people

24:08

during that period the Israelis themselves since 1993 meaning after the

24:13

oso Accords were signed with the Palestine Liberation Organization through October 6

24:20

2023 killed upwards of 12,000 Palestinians of course we're not counting anywhere between 36 and 45,000

24:28

Palestinians who had been killed since October 7th let alone about 90,000 Palestinian injured since then but the

24:35

point is this heightened level of murder and genocidal murder at that is actually

24:42

uh not it's a desperate attempt but not an irrational one to uh Force the Palestinians to stop resisting and to

24:49

accept their fate and we see this as a practice that was followed uh in other

24:55

uh separate colonies as for the decisions uh those that were taken or

25:01

upcoming ones by the international uh uh criminal court or the international

25:06

court of justice uh in in both cases of course these are welcome we've seen similar decisions taken for example in

25:14

the case of Namibia in the early 1970s uh calling on South Africa to

25:20

remove its occupation forces the South Africans of course refused till 1990

25:25

nonetheless they have symbolic value and they do have the the advantage of

25:30

isolating not only Israel but also the UN the United States and those uh pro-

25:37

genocide European countries that continue to support Israel come what may

25:42

uh of course foremost among them is Germany uh followed by Britain and

25:48

France so um there is an important isolation isolationist Advantage uh of

25:54

these decisions of Israel and its major allies um and the fact that it has gone back to

26:02

its status in the 60s and 70s as a parah state which it had sort of overcome

26:09

after the collapse of the Soviet Union between 1990 and 20120 so for about 30

26:15

years it was able to exit the spaya state status which is it has now reentered with a Vengeance I

26:22

believe so I want to zoom out a little bit and ask you about that support from

26:28

the pro- genocide Western States you know these Western countries led by of course the us as well as many of those

26:34

in Europe that you mentioned they've offered this unconditional support to

26:40

Israel and its genocide in Gaza which I mean isn't necessarily surprising they off always offer pretty unconditional

26:46

support to the Israelis but you know you've argued that this is not unique or

26:51

exceptional and then I'm just going to uh quote you here you you wrote in one of your Middle East eye pieces that the

26:57

West views its survival as Europe and the US's Last Stand in support of racism and settler colonialism outside of their

27:04

borders and against the barbaric hordes of non-europeans resisting colonial rule

27:10

and determined to overthrow it and you also put it in the context of a colonial

27:15

tradition some of which you describe that's founded in this kind of Vengeance against the colonized for daring to

27:21

revolt militarily that's neither unique or exceptional do you think the West

27:27

support uh for this genocide is also much like you know one of the reasons Israel is carrying is out it out is also

27:34

part of a kind of punishment for the military successes of October 7th as

27:39

well as a kind of lesson for the rest of the global South as we emerge into a an

27:44

increasingly you know more potentially multi-polar order where there is an

27:50

anxiety in the west about a sort of decline um and being overshadowed by the

27:56

global South um well I mean yes I do believe it is uh uh can only be

28:02

explained in the context of ongoing Western support historically and I today

28:07

for Israel but but also ongoing Western support for Central colonies during their last days to prevent their fall

28:15

we've seen this in uh the Western support for Algeria uh for French

28:20

Algeria and the French in Algeria we've seen this in the attempts also to support um France uh during its

28:28

occupation and colonization of Tunisia and uh Morocco we've seen this in the

28:33

support given to uh Britain in Kenya we've seen it in the support that was

28:39

given to the white separate colonists in rodesia um certainly in South Africa I

28:45

mean the Americans uh until uh uh sort of the mid 1980s were the largest trade

28:51

partner the British West Germany and the United States were the had the largest

28:57

investments in South Africa the American support for the Portuguese and the South African uh war on the gorillas in Angola

29:04

and mamb contined till you know 2000 in the case of Angola and until 1990 in the case of

29:12

mosambi so uh yes I mean the us as you know went in immediately to support

29:18

France after its defeat at the enbian fu in Vietnam in 1854 and continued uh uh

29:25

the War uh at the behest of the French and then in the dependently until 1975 so um there is nothing special

29:33

about the ongoing support for Israel especially of course I mean ideologically as we've seen the

29:38

president of Israel Herzog had sort of regaled us with stories of

29:45

how Israel is defending western civilization and that were to fall

29:50

Europe would be next he said this explicitly we have also heard um recently from the uh uh German uh

29:59

president or head of the European Union who told us that Jewish values of Israel

30:05

that is not Jewish values more generally are European values we've also heard

30:10

similar uh accounts from the European Union's uh major sort of commissioner on

30:16

fighting anti-Semitism who tells us that also European uh uh culture is Jewish

30:22

culture by which she means Zionist culture um remember these are all anti-Semitic claims because Christian

30:29

Europe has always been built on the decimation and the Eraser of uh uh uh

30:35

Judaism and Jewish culture so to suddenly claim that a Zionist Israeli

30:40

Jewish culture is part of Europe is not actually a concession to Judaism but to Zionist colonialism it's not a

30:47

concession to jewishness but a concession to colonialist policies so this is important to remember but this

30:53

kind of equation that Israel and the West are supporting and defending Western values is something I must

31:00

concede because of course Western values are the values of colonialism and genocide this is precisely what Europe

31:07

especially European liberals have espoused since the late uh 18th century and continued to do so throughout the

31:13

19th century the support of so-called racialized democracy in the US while

31:18

supporting despotism for non Brown uh uh and for non-white people whether brown

31:23

black red or yellow is a major sort of uh Hallmark of European liberal thought

31:31

um and we see this of course as continuing today um we know that of course West Germany after its

31:37

establishment following the World War II learned nothing from its Nazi past uh I

31:44

you know I have come up with the epithet for it as the fourth re and I think it has continued to be that H after it

31:51

Germany was unified in 1990 uh so this is a government that has

31:57

upheld in fact continued to be staffed by ex-nazis and upheld uh uh Nazi

32:02

racialism except uh with regards to Jews I me and I've said this before in interviews and I've written about this

32:09

that the kind of regret that you see European countries including especially

32:15

West Germany and unified Germany's uh purported love uh uh for European Jews

32:21

and their gret over the Holocaust is based on this discovery that they made after World War II that Jews turned out

32:29

to be white people so they had mistaken them for non-white people which is why they committed that horrific genocide

32:35

against them that materialized in the Holocaust but now that they've realized after the 1950s that there was a mistake

32:42

and Jews were actually white Europeans they've regretted that so the regret was not that you should not kill people who

32:48

are different from you the regret is expressed that you should not kill people that are just like you meaning

32:54

white Europeans which Jews uh subsequent to the Holocaust and in the 1950s began

33:00

to be reintegrated in Europe at the level of cultural value however the

33:05

belief that nonwhite people should continue to be killed uh was never question we've seen this of course in

33:11

European colonial policies since World War II and the ongoing genocides you know from Algeria and Vietnam and in the

33:19

case of France du what the US had done from Korea to uh Vietnam central Africa

33:25

southern Africa Central and South America Etc you know what the

33:31

Portuguese had done Etc and of course the Germans have never shown as much regret over the holocausts in tanganika

33:38

and in Namibia uh before World War I uh they've recently sort of made some

33:43

apologies to Namibia but nothing more than that this is why today you see most

33:49

of the support coming excuse me coming the way of the

33:54

Palestinians coming precisely from people who have suffered under European

33:59

cetro colonialism South Africa and Namibia have been in the Forefront of supporting the Palestinians and in

34:06

condemning Israeli genocide that is ongoing today the only people who defend

34:11

that genocide of course are uh uh Germany at the European Union and the United States either separate colonies

34:17

or colonizing countries who had set up separate colonies previously so um in

34:23

that sense I think the support uh that the United States the West more

34:28

generally uh have given and continue to give to Israel is part and parcel of uh

34:34

their ongoing support for white supremacy in their own countries and elsewhere but Israel is of course the

34:40

last uh uh sort of European supremacist set Colony that remains in Asia and

34:46

Africa that continues to uh rule by with a battery of uh racist laws uh upwards

34:53

of five dozen laws uh maybe 65 to 66 laws uh uh on the latest count uh now in

35:01

terms of the kind of U support that Israeli genocide of the Palestinians uh

35:07

uh is obtaining in these uh Colonial settler and white supremacist quarters

35:13

yes it is part of a kind of Vengeance that uh inferior races have arrogated to

35:20

themselves the right or the ability to kill or resist uh sort of white

35:27

supremacy and European Supremacy we see this for example and and I tried to position this in the history of

35:33

colonialism perhaps the the major example goes back to 1879 when the Zulu

35:39

Army defeated the British and killed upwards of 1300 uh uh uh Brits um while

35:45

the British were trying to conquer Zulu land only for the British a few months later in July 1879 to bring a much

35:53

larger Army conquer zululand uh destroy uh uh basically the the capital of the

36:01

Zulu Kingdom hundi at the time and killed 10,000 Zulus to exact revenge and

36:06

teach them a lesson for having uh killed their uh betters and their superiors we

36:12

see this also such horrific massacres in Revenge uh in the 1890s the revenge is

36:18

is we have come and colonized your country you should be thankful if you resist that we have to avenge ourselves

36:25

meaning your resistance is not really a of Vengeance or retaliation against our colonization but if our response to your

36:32

resistance is retaliatory so we see this with the Rhian white settlers who

36:37

massacred uh uh hundreds and thousands of uh Native uh uh and

36:43

Indigenous Africans in the area that would become uh rodesia in the 1890s and

36:49

committed atrocious atrocious acts of physical mutilations and rapes we see

36:54

this also something that the Italians have done when they lost in the Battle of adwa to the Ethiopian Army in 1896

37:02

and were humiliated before the European peers they Avenged themselves through

37:07

melini's uh 1935 invasion of Ethiopia which killed upwards of 70,000

37:13

Ethiopians and transformed Ethiopia into an Italian Seer Colony we see this again

37:18

the British did something similar in Sudan you know the British were defeated in 1885 in Sudan by the Mahi they

37:27

decided again to go back and with a larger Army and Conquer Sudan uh uh 13

37:33

years later in 1898 killing 12,000 Sudanese uh in order to take it over and

37:39

even though Al Mahi had died of natural causes before them they went and decapitated his body and there was an

37:47

attempt to use his skull as an ink pot on the desk of the British colonial officer um in uh Sudan we see this also

37:55

something that the Spanish would do and the French in Morocco the ABD

38:02

Kimi who declared the reef Republic in 1921 had fought off the Spanish

38:07

colonists killing thousands of them and established an independent republic perhaps the first Arab independent

38:14

republic in the Arab world um only uh for a combined force of the Spanish and

38:20

the French to attack the Republic in 1926 killing tens of thousands uh of

38:25

Moroccans at the time mutually in their bodies raping their women and uh of course uh destroying the reef Republic

38:33

and reoccupying that part of Morocco so Algeria of course is the co cab of uh

38:41

French atrocities um especially uh if you want to speak about after World War

38:47

II from 1945 onwards where any Uprising by the Algerian natives against their

38:52

cruel and sadistic French settlers would be met with massive murders of tens of

38:58

thousands of algerians so much so that by between 1954 and 1962 upwards of

39:04

300,000 algerians were killed by the French so this kind of quest for vengeance This Racist quest for

39:12

vengeance and to teach those inferior races a good lesson for having actually

39:17

resisted their veterans and exacted uh sort of uh victims uh from amongst them

39:25

uh is actually a war strategy it's not only an irrational response um I mean it

39:30

is of course a Savage War um it is a racist one it is genocidal but I don't

39:37

think it's irrational so um I think that's such a

39:43

good way to put it and there's there's a topic I'm really excited to actually discuss with you here Joseph and that is

39:49

you know you were talking about Europeans not learning from what they did during the Holocaust obviously

39:55

particularly the Germans who kind of St Nazis um and how they adopted or decided

40:01

that you know Jews actually in Europe are white now they consider them white um and I I I'm I'm the reason I I like

40:10

the way you portrayed that is not just because it's factual but also it speaks to a kind of projection that we hear

40:16

from Europeans about the Holocaust it's almost sometimes the way they talk about it it's as if like the Middle Eastern

40:23

Arabs and Muslims were the ones who carried out the Holocaust and the reason I raised that the reason I'm excited to talk to you about this topic I'm going

40:29

to raise now is that you know zionists like to argue that Zionism is in fact

40:34

not white supremacy because there are many Arab Jews right which they call M

40:41

rahime uh in what is considered present day Israel um and zionists also insist

40:47

that the Arab countries kicked all of these Jews out over the decades since

40:52

Israel's creation uh because of just virulent anti-Semitism that resembled that of European Nazis um so I'm curious

41:01

if I I I want to open the topic on this because it's a common talking point so Joseph can you explain the actual

41:07

history here how did so many Arab Jews end up in what is now called Israel is

41:14

it because the Arab and Muslim majority countries just suddenly turned into Nazis um and I mean that's a rhetorical

41:21

question because that's not what happened um and also how has the European settler colony of Israel treed

41:27

them and erased their history um this is a large topic but I want to make a

41:32

perhaps uh add a footnote to what I said earlier about the transformation of Eur

41:38

European Jews from semites or an inferior race in the eyes of European

41:44

racists into whites who didn't deserve uh to be killed because they were white

41:50

uh you know a realization that dawned on EX German Nazis and Europeans afterward

41:57

World War II we see this also encouraged for example in Hollywood films remember the majority of the Six Million Jews who

42:03

were killed during World War II were poor EAS European Jews poor and religious um however we see the

42:09

depiction of uh Jews in Hollywood films about the Holocaust usually like as in

42:15

West European white looking Urban Highly Educated secular Jews playing piano

42:22

speaking uh Western languages Etc the idea is to also say that these European

42:28

Jews looked like all European Christians which is why they didn't deserve to die but of course they hardly ever

42:34

represented uh the majority of Jews who are poor and religious are hardly ever represented in these Holocaust films

42:42

lest uh they be seen by European anti-semites as different from themselves even during that period so

42:48

the point of trying to erase uh the history of European anti-jewish racism

42:54

and anti-Semitism is precisely by trying to erase the difference that these racists had registered between a a

43:02

certain Vision or idea or depiction fictional as it was of European Christians and European Jews having said

43:11

that um let me try to answer your very large question on the question of Arab

43:16

Jews of course A lot of these things are Zionist Fabrications there has never been a single order to expel any Arab

43:26

Jews from any Arab country since 1948 that simply didn't happen uh in fact the

43:32

opposite has happened and we will I will tell you a few things about that uh first of all after 1948 the league of

43:39

Arab states in fact uh issued instructions to all Arab countries to pass laws to prevent Arab Jews from

43:47

going to Israel or from immigrating to Israel so in fact subsequent immigration

43:52

of Arab Jews from different Arab countries to Israel was against the law

43:58

we see this uh perhaps uh uh most spectacularly in the case of Yemen but

44:04

also Iraq and and then Egypt and Morocco Tunisia or even Algeria uh first

44:11

of all let me say that the majority of Algerian uh Jews uh left with Algerian

44:17

uh uh French Christian settlers um uh you know with a kind of countdown to

44:23

Independence despite calls upon them by the fln the the Algerian National

44:29

Liberation Front to remain as compatriots and equal citizens remember

44:34

uh Algerian Jews were transformed by the French in 1870 at the time the Justice

44:41

uh minister of France Adolf Gru had granted Algerian Jews French citizenship

44:47

so as to render algerians all Muslims so suddenly Algerian Jews were taken out of

44:52

the Algerian status of colonized people and were given the right of the French

44:57

settlers and as a result began to be integrated into French colonial society

45:03

and of course and this is why it was easy for them to leave to France and they left to France long before Algerian

45:10

Independence so under the French Administration uh Moroccan and Tunisian Jews also left Tunisia and Morocco

45:18

during the French uh occupation in the case of Tunisia and the French and Spanish occupation in Morocco not under

45:26

the independent governments that came to power after 1956 and we know that I mean

45:31

there's already been a lot of history of how Moroccan Jews were tricked or sometimes forced to go on ships with the

45:38

collusion of French and Spanish officials and the zionists to be taken against their will through M to Israel

45:46

and then prevent it from going back but the big stories usually are the stories of the large communities in Yemen in

45:54

Iraq and in the smaller one in EG in Yemen of course uh that was uh at the

46:01

time ruled by a pro-western uh uh uh ruler by the name of Imam Ahmed who at

46:08

the time uh was basically allowed Zionist envoys to come in and uh because

46:13

the country was not highly centralized the zionists would go into different regions and try to bribe uh the rulers

46:21

of those regions to allow the Jews to immigrate which was against the law but many also ref refused and according to

46:29

uh the letters written by uh mosad agents who wrote back to their Handler saying you know many of the yemeni

46:35

Muslim leaders say we cannot allow you to take the Jews away from Yemen we are

46:41

obligated by our religion and L to protect them as sort of the people of

46:46

the book uh but indeed uh uh so they tried to in many ways go around these

46:53

objections to bring about the Exodus of yemeni Jews uh who left as a result of these Zionist

47:00

machinations the big Scandal of course has always been that of Iraqi Jews uh

47:05

Iraqi Jews had been historically anti-zionists as were the rabbis uh they

47:11

were represented in all classes like Muslim and Christian Iraqis indeed some of them were ministers in the

47:17

governments of Iraq under the British mandate uh however after 1948 of course

47:23

uh as I said in other Arab countries as in Iraq laws were legislated to ban the

47:29

possibility of Arab Jewish immigration to Israel at the time Iraq was applying

47:35

for a loan from the World Bank the Americans and the Israelis uh began to

47:42

uh influence the World Bank decision to give that loan to Iraq and that they would not give them that loan unless the

47:49

Iraqi Parliament would pass a law to unban uh Iraqi Jewish immigration to

47:57

Israel at the time Iraq of course was run by the British strong the Iraqi

48:03

strongman who was a British agent NRI s who collaborated basically on this issue

48:08

and finally had Parliament issue or unbanned immigration uh the Zionist

48:14

envoys who wrote back to the Mad would say we're about to win uh in Parliament

48:19

and to bring about what we have worked for for the previous two years um they did that however to encourage Iraqi

48:26

Jewish immigration uh the wasad planted several uh explosives in different cafes and

48:34

libraries frequented by Jews H they were set to go off at night one of them went

48:39

off early killing I think a couple of people and injuring a third um which of

48:45

course sent Panic or Panic waves in the Jewish Community thinking that it was Muslims or Christian Iraqis who were

48:52

targeting them and many began to leave the country of course the Parliament had

48:57

legislated that those Arab Jews wishing to leave would lose their Iraqi nationality and could not take their

49:03

property with them meaning they would arrive in Israel destitute which um um

49:09

many uh uh scholars believe was actually worked out with the Israelis so that the

49:14

Iraqi Jews would would arrive in Israel penniless and become working class

49:20

serving the ashkanazi community in Israel as many uh Arab Jewish historians

49:26

of that Exodus and of the Iraqi Jewish community in Israel have uh taught us um

49:32

in the case of Egypt which had a small community I mean the Iraq had about 130,000 Jews U basically it was emptied

49:40

of its Jews in a matter of few weeks uh uh in 1950 51 uh but uh in the case of

49:49

Egyptian Jews there was about 60 to 65,000 Jews half of them were not Egyptian citizens they were either

49:56

foreign Nationals or had uh they were stateless holders of Lees or travel

50:03

documents now U uh the rich amongst them decided to leave in 1948 as a result of

50:11

uh the Zionist conquest of Palestine uh there began to of course arise anti-jewish sentiment in the country uh

50:18

but uh but mostly it was anti-an so some European Jewish businesses like European

50:24

Christian businesses were attacked or burnt down in some demonstrations in Egypt during that period however the

50:31

major Exodus of Egyptian Jews would take place in 1954 the Israelis were able to

50:38

recruit about nine or 10 uh uh Egyptian Jews as terrorists and spies for them uh

50:45

this Scandal would come to be known as the Lavon Affair after the Israeli Minister hak Lavon who had engineered it

50:52

wherein some of these terrorists were to plant uh explosives in Egyptian Cinemas

50:59

in the major train station in Cairo um in different other post offices in

51:04

Alexandria and in Cairo uh again one of the explosives went off uh early uh and

51:11

injured one of the terrorists who was captured and told on the rest of the uh

51:16

cell all of whom were captured by the Egyptian authorities uh and then of

51:21

course they had a public trial uh the NASA regime was explicit uh in

51:27

directives and announcements to the population that a distinction has to always be made between zionists and

51:34

Egyptian Jews that these were zionists even though they were Jewish they're not the same as Egyptian Jews nonetheless of

51:41

course public sentiment began to be very hostile to Egyptian Jews which brought about um The Exodus of a large number

51:49

also of the upper class and the middle class who went to France or to the Bay Area in the United States it was in 1956

51:57

when in collusion with France and Britain Israel invaded Egypt and what came to be known as The tripartite

52:04

Invasion or what the West calls the Suz war that had elicited a much larger and

52:11

final Exodus of Egyptian Jews from the country the poor amongst them could not

52:17

reach France or the United States and ended up in Israel the Israeli propaganda line usually is that in 1956

52:26

the Egyptian regime expelled Jews that's not true the Egyptian regime as all

52:31

other regimes or governments during war time uh did uh Deport all holders of uh

52:38

British as well as French nationality and I if I'm not mistaken also Belgian

52:44

nationality who are participants in the war as enemy Nationals so those Jews who

52:49

held like other Christians uh British or French nationalities were deported from

52:55

the country but there were was never a deportation order for Egyptian Jews or for Jews who held non-enemy

53:01

nationalities that's utterly untrue and indeed uh uh some would say that

53:07

Egyptian Jewish property was nationalized that's not true uh in the 1950s the NASA government had what was

53:15

called then an egyptianizing to egyptianizing

53:26

to Egyptians um usually a big propaganda lie is that the shakurel family as

53:34

Safari family that originated in Turkey who had come to Egypt after World War I and owned uh one of the largest

53:41

department stores the shakurel department store left because its store had been nationalized it was not in fact

53:48

shurell sold the business at a very good price to Al gabri Muslim family in Egypt

53:53

subsequently after 58 a lot of these these businesses were nationalized when the sharel department store was

53:59

nationalized it was owned by a Muslim family and not by the sharel family who had sold it uh and uh left uh to uh

54:08

Britain or to France so the point of this is that uh none of this is actually

54:14

true most of the Jews who left Arab countries either left during the British or French or Spanish rule or um if they

54:22

left after Independence uh they left of their own accord as a result of Israeli

54:28

direct intervention in their lives that has up that had upended their lives

54:33

until then and these stories of course can you know multiply on a smaller scale

54:39

elsewhere um as far as their treatment in Israel as soon as they arrived of course they were placed in refugee camps

54:46

the ashkanazi European Jews were given uh the homes of The Expelled Palestinian

54:52

population as well as their lands the better lands uh of the Palestinian by the time the Arab Jews were bought in um

54:59

they were given substandard housing if at all and uh uh the Lesser fertile land

55:06

to set up on them some agricultural cooperatives um especially as the kibot

55:12

which were sort of a master race socialism for ashkan aim only had the best land and Arab Jews could not join

55:19

them uh so we begin to see in fact the discrimination against them in education

55:24

in employment even in subsidies for example European ashkanazi bread would be subsidized by the government but not

55:32

Arab bread when Iraqi Bakers wanted to make Iraqi bread they refused to give

55:37

them subsidized flour and they would have had to actually buy the expensive flour to make it because that was not

55:42

subsidized that was not considered part of the national or Jewish bread so something as trivial as that became a

55:48

problem the educational system would discriminate against them uh uh they

55:54

would discriminate against them even based on their proper pronunciation of Hebrew as opposed to the Germanic and

56:00

Russian pronunciation of Hebrew of the East European and West European Jews which became the standard pronunciation

56:07

in the country with a couple of exceptions um uh which uh uh took on a

56:13

certain Safari pronunciation of the language what is called theic system and the pronunciation of

56:21

the letter th in Hebrew which the Safar pronounced as THV and the and the ashim

56:27

as aside from these two concessions all the other so-called citic sounds in

56:33

Hebrew like the like like the none of these of course are is pronounced today

56:40

Asim in Israel uh even though some of the MIM continue to pronounce them and

56:46

of course are looked down upon for pronouncing them correctly as opposed to in a European East European or Central

56:53

European fashion um uh of of course they would be blamed even in 1977 for the

56:59

election of the right-wing leud government uh ashkanazi liberals would say oh these horrible Arab Jews who grew

57:06

up in a despotic and dictatorial Arab world support leud which is dictatorial

57:12

because of their Arab tradition of course the Arab Jews have to remind them that all the Arab Jews who grew up in

57:18

the Arab world and came to Israel uh in 1949 to 55 had voted labor until 1977 it

57:26

was their children who grew up in Israel who seemed to love and support leud in

57:31

1977 but of course you know liberal Zionist racism toward the MIM has always

57:37

been immense if anything uh liberal zionists may be more accommodating to

57:42

Liberal Palestinians like the PA than they had been to more radical voices in

57:47

the mrai community that called the ashkanazi racists on racism indeed many

57:54

uh M intellectual R refer to Israel as the ashkanazi state right as a result of

58:00

the ongoing discriminatory practices against them and the insistence that Israel is a European country should be a

58:07

European country should carry what they call European culture and

58:12

values wow that was a that was a really really really good explanation

58:19

I but but it's important no but it's so important because it's this is not it's not just I mean it's a propaganda point

58:25

that the Israelis always also bring out but it's also important to recognize how much Israel remade the entire region I

58:32

mean it sectarianization it literally took some of the oldest communities in certain places out and brought them into

58:39

this settler colony and then erased their histories and basically projected European history onto them um while also

58:47

doing all of the or putting on all these like racist tropes onto these people that you just explained uh who at the

58:54

end of the day have far more more in common to the Palestinians they've been brought in to replace uh than these

59:01

Europeans uh who claim to be superior to them and that just speaks to the level of anti-Semitism that's inherent to

59:07

Zionism and I know that we we don't have all the time to maybe get to everything I wanted to but something I did I

59:14

definitely want to ask you about because I think it's so important um and you've written about this a lot is the is is

59:22

Jewish anti-zionism in particular um and a that you wrote titled Jewish

59:28

opposition to Israel is as old as Zionism itself you say that European and American Jews have been at the forfront

59:34

of opposition to Zionism since its birth as a colonial settler movement at the end of the 19th century and I think this

59:41

is very significant and important to highlight because the US and Israel are

59:46

trying to make Jews and jewishness the face of this genocide and the Zionist

59:51

project more generally um and of course it I that's why I need to to bring on somebody uh of Palestinian Arab descent

59:59

to to defend to defend uh jewishness from the anti-Semitism inherent to

1:00:04

Zionism but in all seriousness um can you talk about that can you talk about

1:00:10

the fact that or I guess can you briefly explain Jewish anti-zionism

1:00:15

historically and then its ongoing existence today and of course the Zionist reaction to anti-zionist Jews

1:00:22

which is basically kind of genocidal at this point in of itself if you enjoyed this episode and want to hear the rest

1:00:28

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