Video Infoblog: The myth of Israel's 'democracy' w/Ilan Pappé | The Chris Hedges Report

6 Jan 2024 The Real News Network Podcasts

Israel's status as a bona fide democracy is often taken to be a self-evident truth, but a more critical look at the history and reality of Zionism calls this into question. After all, how can a democracy exist in a country constitutionally defined as an ethnostate that can only exist through the suppression and gradual elimination of its Others? Israeli historian Ilan Pappé joins The Chris Hedges Report for a discussion on Israel as an inherently colonial, and therefore anti-democratic, project. Ilan Pappé is a professor with the College of Social Sciences and International Studies at the University of Exeter in the UK, where he directs the European Centre for Palestine Studies, and co-directs the Exeter Centre for Ethno-Political Studies. Prior to coming to the UK, Pappé was a historian and politician in Israel. He is the author of several books, including The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine.

Transcript

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this kind of equation that Israel and the West are supporting and defending

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Western values is something I must concede because of course Western values are the values of colonialism and

0:11

genocide this is precisely what Europe especially European liberals have espoused since the late uh 18th century

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and continued to do so throughout the 19th century the support of so-called racialized democracy in the US while

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supporting despera ISM for non- brown uh uh and for non-white people whether brown black red or yellow is a major

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sort of Hallmark of European liberal fault um and we see this of course as

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continuing today um we know that of course West Germany after its establishment following the World War II

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learned nothing from its Nazi past uh I you know I have come up with the epithet

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for it as the fourth wife hello everyone I'm Ryan cik and this is dispatches

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eight months into Israel's genocide in Gaza Israel's supporters are getting more desperate than ever in defending

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their Liv streamed mass murder of tens of thousands of civilians they're trotting out their favorite propaganda

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points everything from claiming European roots to the Middle East to accusing

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even Israel's softest critics of anti-Semitism while the West pulls out

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all the stops to protect its satellite settler colony in Palestine would Zionism exposed to much

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of the world for the genocidal Sav aagy its victims always new defined it it's becoming clear this project is not only

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unsustainable but maybe nearing its end to discuss this and more I'm joined by

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Joseph masad professor of modern Arab politics and intellectual history at Columbia University and the author of

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many books including the Persistence of the Palestinian question Islam and liberalism and Desiring Arabs he also

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writes a column in Middle East I in English and in Adobe 21 in Arabic but

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before we jump into it this is just part of this episode the full interview is available to breakthrough news members

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only you can become a member at patreon.com breakthrough news and as

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always be sure to hit the Subscribe button and the Bell so you get a notification whenever we post new content and if you appreciate this show

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you can also donate Below on YouTube Joseph welcome back to the show

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thank you for having me I am it's an honor to be here well it's an honor to have you on and I mean I'm sure anybody

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who follows me on social media knows that I am a big proponent of your

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reading Joseph massad's work your work is excellent your articles are excellent your books are excellent your analysis

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is like no other so I'm really excited to really dig into it as we enter almost into the eighth month of this horrific

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genocide in Gaza and I think a good place to start is you know you in one of

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your articles and you have repeatedly described Zionism as being a genocidal cult whose savagery

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is a sign of its impending doom or defeat I'm quoting you there so I want to start there I want to ask you after

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what we've seen since October 7th but I mean obviously we can say what we've seen since Israel's founding do you

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believe that we're witnessing the end of Zionism I believe we are and I have believed that for quite some time now um

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you know my thinking has always been and of course I'm not alone in this but

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generally when you look at WID settler colonies the only ones that have survived are the ones who are successful

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in absolutely eliminating and annihilating the native population

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either completely or uh basically retaining a small minority of them these

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are the only white Central colonies that have survived we see this in the United States we see it in Canada in Australia

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and in New Zealand we see less of that of course in other places in Latin America of course uh there was a lot of

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intermarriage and still we have several states where Native Americans continue to be a majority especially in the anian

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States but also where there are very few um sort of large white populations

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perhaps outside of Argentina uh that dominate we have more of a mixed

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population uh racially mixed uh you know as the Europeans would say uh in a

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number of these states so they don't survive in the same way although they remain Central colonies it's not in the

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same way uh and we've seen some changes when Eva Morales was perhaps the first

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uh uh Native American to rule any uh of the settler colonies in the Americas uh

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some decade and a half ago took place that was a major event but um Israel of course is more like South Africa Algeria

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Tunisia uh Libya Morocco uh rodesia you know Angola mosambique

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Namibia it's like all of these other setler colonies uh including Kenya for

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example whose end we've witnessed since the early 60s and through the mid 1990s

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and the reason why these settler colonies were dismantled has to do with the fact that the native population has

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always outnumbered or has come to outnumber the white sepor population um

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this is a situation that Zionism was very much aware of which is why in 194 eight they and and even before that they

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had planed since the 1920s in fact to concrete plans that is to expel the

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Palestinian population we know that Zionism had foreseen the necessity of expelling the Palestinians as early as

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Theodore herzo who written about expelling them or at least facilitating their uh sort of uh uh uh removal from

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the country as he put it in his Diaries but also in his subsequent writings but since the 1920s and the 1930s the

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zionists came up with concrete plans on how to bring this about and certainly uh starting on the 30th of November 1947

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the day after the United Nations had passed uh the partition plan resolution

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uh they uh began to put this plan into action and began to expel the Palestinian population so that while the

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Palestinians were more than 70% of the population of Palestine the 30% Jewish

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settlers most of whom had arrived in the uh previous DEC and a half from uh

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Europe uh subsequent to that they began to expel you know uh the majority of

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that population so by the time Israel was finished with the expulsion by December 1948 or at least was the major

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part of the expulsion it had successfully uh evicted more than 90% of

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the Palestinian population in the territories it uh was able to establish

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itself over um this is this was the only way it was able to become uh a Jewish

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majority setler colony and that of course plated the fears and the worries

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of of its uh Jewish supremacist and racist Founders that their settler Colony would survive the way the United

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States Canada Australia and New Zealand had survived um they were concerned they thought they were in a better situation

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than South Africa say or Algeria where the settlers were far outnumbered by uh

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the indigenous populations and that there had been in neither of these Cal colonies or in others major plans to

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evict the population so the zionists were really uh uh uh quite ahead of their time in the sense that they

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thought they were on to something unlike these other African sepa colonies uh

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through the expulsion of the population the major mistake the zionists made of course of the Israelis made in 1967 is

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to conquer the remaining part of Palestine adding to Israel a large

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number of Palestinians not only the indigenous populations of the West Bank

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Gaza and East Jerusalem but also more than half the refugees that they had expelled in 1948 who had taken refuge

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and had been living in the areas they conquered as a result of that the demographic situation changed

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considerably in Israel and began to affect the survivability of the separate

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Colony at least on a demographic basis however um as the decline in the percentage of

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Jews in their majority in Palestine continued between 1967 and

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1990 with all kinds of predictions since the 1980s that Palestinians would very

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soon outnumber the uh Jewish settlers uh kind of a great Cold War uh and Imperial

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gift was given to the zionists by the Triumph of the United States in the Cold War the subsequent collapse of the

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Soviet Union and the immigration of one million Soviets uh many who claimed to

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be Jewish although about 40% of whom subsequently were revealed not to be Jewish according to uh judaic or rical

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criteria nonetheless those one million Jewish uh settlers who came between 1990

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and 2000 to Israel had uh in many ways of course delayed uh this demographic uh

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crisis that Israel was facing and um since then however in the last uh 24

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years or so uh that Advantage uh disappeared and the Palestinians began

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to outnumber uh Israeli Jews and settlers in their country I would say even

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beginning uh you know in 20145 or thereabouts uh we begin to see

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not only uh uh the ascent of the number of Palestinians because of uh perhaps uh

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uh as the Israelis are always concerned about a higher rate uh of reproduction

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but also because of the increasing number of Israeli Jews who began to immigrate outside the country um and

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indeed that imigration from Israel especially to Europe and the United States increased significantly after uh

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the fall of the Soviet Union and the Eastern socialist Camp because many of

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these countries now began to actually is issue passports to Jewish settlers in

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Israel whose families had come from these countries this would include Germany Poland Hungary Romania but even

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Spain uh began to give or Grant uh Zari Jews uh Spanish passports based on uh

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the premise that uh the Jews were of course expelled in 1492 but of course so

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were Muslim Arabs although Spain was not as magnanimous in providing passports to

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them uh the reason why this is important is because of course um Europe is economically far superior uh in terms of

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income and uh uh sort of standard of living than Israel is so more than a

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million Israeli Jews possibly two million applied and received these passports and began to move or spend at

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least half a year in Europe and this became a guarantee for them that should Israel's economic military security or

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any other aspect of its societ to fall they had something very important to fall back on which is

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European or American citizenship which also facilitated their immigration so this is a a very important demographic

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factor in why I think Zionism has been sort of in a way deteriorating and perhaps

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approaching its end uh in the last couple of decades but um what I wanted

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to say is of course the Israelis have become very very aware of the situation which is why they decided that the kind

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of a facade of liberal democracy with which theyve surrounded themselves since 1948 wherein for example Palestinian

12:10

citizens of Israel meaning the 165,000 people who had remained inside the 1948

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borders of Israel after the end of the war who are today upwards of 2.2 million

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people those people actually were given uh the right to vote and Israel citizens

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of course there are upwards of 65 uh laws that discriminate against them in

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the country and that uphold Jewish privilege uh uh in the country uh over

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uh the rights of non-jews even though they are citizens but nonetheless H as a

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result of the fact that this minority of Palestinians who were not expelled got some of these rights Israel could

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actually in many ways uh uh cover itself with a kind of a a camouflage of uh

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liberal Democratic rights however of course after 1967 when it acquired a

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much larger Palestinian population whose territories it conquered uh it refused

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to extend to them uh suffrage at all realizing that they would outnumber and outvote uh uh Jewish supremacist

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governments so as but but still uh this is sort of this was one of the reasons

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why it couldn't Annex these territories without being able to expel the population and there was no opportunity

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to do so between 1967 and October 6 2023 so as a result it couldn't really Annex

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these territories it tried to expel Palestinians from East Jerusalem uh

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which it successfully did with many thousands of them which is why it was able to Annex it but not the rest of the

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territories as a result of that by 2018 Israel was unable to sustain uh this

13:58

Leaf of Democratic liberalism and decided to legislate a new law the

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so-called nation state law which explicitly stated basically that Jews

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have exclusive rights to the land of Israel or to the state of Israel and

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they are the only uh part of the Israeli uh citizenship uh that has the exclusive

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right to self-determination inside the state of Israel what that meant was knowing that

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Israeli Jew are becoming a minority and will increasingly become more of a minority

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suddenly there was a need for an explicit law to state that they will continue to have differential Privileges

14:41

and rights over non-jews in Israel lest the Palestinians think that if if they

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became a majority they would be able to outvote them so we begin to see um a

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transformation in the image that Israel was projecting we saw that many of the pro Zionist Western leaders

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and the extremely Pro Zionist Western media including the New York Times being highly concerned about the explicitness

15:07

of uh this new law and subsequent uh legal and institutional procedures that the Israelis were taking because they

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couldn't help um Israel uh in Western coverage cover up its increasing racism

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in addition to that of course there's the increasing internal disagreements between two major sections of the Jewish

15:27

electorate namely the fanatical fundamentalist uh uh Zionist Jewish

15:34

citizens and the fanatical secularist as Zionist Jewish citizens over the way the

15:39

country should be run juridically we know this has been an ongoing battle

15:45

between the secular and uh and the fundamentalist uh parts of the

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electorate since 1948 as we know the uh fundamentalist and religious Jewish

15:57

political parties insisted in 1948 that Israel uh abide by Jewish law in terms

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of the Jewish state would not for example serve uh non- kosher food that

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uh the Sabbath would be a holiday um and things of that sort um uh and as a

16:17

result of course Israel until today does not even have a constitution because where to do so it would have to

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incorporate uh some of the halik religious Jewish law in it which would

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alienate many of its secular secular uh citizens uh now uh as a result of uh

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this battle since then of course also Israel uh does not have for example

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civil marriage so each uh religious community its religious Affairs its

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marriage uh and divorce are run by its own religious authorities so for uh Jews

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and the only denomination of Judaism that is recognized in Israel is Orthodox

17:00

Judaism reformed Judaism and conservative Judaism are not recognized so Orthodox judaism's uh that the the

17:07

marriage and divorce of Jewish citizens is governed by Jewish law just as for

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Muslims also inside Israel it's governed by uh Muslim uh law and for the

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different Christian Palestinian denominations by their own churches so as a result of course the fundamentalist

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uh religious uh elector today which clearly is a majority that has been bringing to power more and more

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fundamentalist uh and right-wing uh religious uh political parties um has

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had a long presence in Israel this is not new at all however increasingly

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there's been an attempt by the Netanyahu government to bring about even more changes in the laws that would affect

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the rights uh the rights of secular uh fanatical Zionist Jewish citizens in

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Israel which precipitated a large number of uh demonstrations and a larger

18:03

opposition to these policies which preceded uh the subsequent genocidal War

18:08

which Israel declared and launched against the Palestinians on October

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7th I think it's so important that people understand because what you just

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gave are very material reasons why the Israelis behave and do what they do

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because of oftentimes I think it's seen as oh Israel is just like a crazy irrational State I mean there is some

18:31

level of irrationality to some of the behavior and rhetoric of some Israeli leaders um because they look they make

18:38

themselves look very stupid on the international stage but as far as policies towards Palestinian goes

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Palestinians goes there is a reason the Israelis are trying to eliminate as many

18:48

Palestinians as possible in Gaza they have a demographic problem there's a reason they're constantly doing what

18:54

they do in Jerusalem judaizing neighborhoods and kicking people out because they have a demographic problem

18:59

and it goes on and on and on and it's an existential crisis for this country and you just you just laid out out how and

19:05

I'm curious you know Israel basically has to commit this these horrific levels of violence in order to continue to

19:12

exist as a Zionist Colony right as a result you see things like the ICC

19:18

potential arrest orance the icj rulings coming out now you see which is

19:24

something you recently wrote about as as just a very symbolic thing that's sort of meaningless but you see these European countries um recognizing a

19:30

Palestinian State whatever that means at this point all that's to say this is a part of a sort of increasing Pariah

19:36

status of Israel so I'm curious if you think these sorts of measures even if they don't really have any teeth um

19:43

actually mean something when taken together at this point well I mean um let me also put

19:51

Israel in the context of other settler colonies uh during their last years

19:56

right so I don't think what Israel is doing is necessarily irrational I do think there's perhaps a level of

20:02

heightened concern and worry perhaps some desperation we've heard some predictions by Israeli officials

20:08

including Netanyahu over the last five six years saying we're not sure Israel

20:13

Will Survive to its 80th birthday or to its H 100th birthday and this is long before what unfolded after October 7th

20:21

so there's been that kind of worry about all these internal fissures the demographic contraction of Israel and

20:28

the fact that there's no new pool from which to draw on I mean the Six Million or so uh American Jews have never shown

20:36

uh an interest or at least not never has there been a large percentage of

20:43

American Jury that showed an interest in moving to Israel not at all even though

20:48

today for example American Jewish settlers um in Israel I think are

20:54

upwards of uh uh I think 10% um of the population but generally the majority of

21:00

American Jews um uh you know have chosen to remain in their own country uh in the

21:06

United States uh while many of them may support Israel others don't um and even

21:11

those you know we've we've seen sort of over the last 30 years there's been a lot of polls for example about how many

21:18

American Jews had even visited Israel uh usually the polls tell us that uh about

21:24

half uh of American Jury had visited Israel the majority of whom visited it

21:30

as part of a tour of the region that included Egypt or Jordan so a general

21:35

sort of American tourism uh so we don't despite the political support that uh

21:42

private American Jewish organizations who don't necessarily represent American Jews uh might give to Israel and despite

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the fact that even many individual Jews uh uh may be supportive of Israel that

21:55

does not mean that they are zionists or they're going to move to Israel so the only two remaining possibilities for the

22:02

Israelis to bring in more Jews are the small community in France and in

22:08

Argentina um they've been partially successful in both areas but even if they're able to bring in and to convince

22:15

all French Jews and Argentinian Jews to come to Israel the numbers are so minuscule that they won't be able to

22:21

offset this demographic crisis but now having said that what I want to say is also um the uh Mass

22:29

murder and genocidal policies of the Israeli government are not necessarily irrational they may be desperate in a

22:35

certain way in the sense that they must teach the Palestinians a lesson never to

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actually resist Israel again so the issue is not only to eliminate them physically and demographically but also

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to forall the possibility of resistance in the future we see this kind of behavior that I think is quite rational

22:53

uh followed by many of uh the sep Colonial countries um we see this for example by the British

23:01

in Kenya which was one of their last major setal colonies in Africa between the 50s and the early 60s when Kenya

23:09

received its independence the British killed upwards of 100,000 Kenyans the atrocities committed there were

23:14

appalling um they used to even uh barbecue Mau Guerilla uh members alive

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uh uh you know this is of course uh British European uh uh and Enlightenment

23:26

values um we see for example the Portuguese South Africa and the US uh uh

23:32

in order to forall the independence of the Portuguese Central colonies of Angola and mosambi killing upwards of a

23:38

million and a half mamb beans and angolans between 1962 and 2000 uh basically a huge number

23:46

to end the possibility of a Revolt at the end of the central Colony we see that also uh um in places like uh uh

23:56

South Africa between 1989 and 1994 the South African white regime as

24:02

it was negotiating the end of Apartheid killed upwards of 15,000 black people

24:08

during that period the Israelis themselves since 1993 meaning after the

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oso Accords were signed with the Palestine Liberation Organization through October 6

24:20

2023 killed upwards of 12,000 Palestinians of course we're not counting anywhere between 36 and 45,000

24:28

Palestinians who had been killed since October 7th let alone about 90,000 Palestinian injured since then but the

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point is this heightened level of murder and genocidal murder at that is actually

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uh not it's a desperate attempt but not an irrational one to uh Force the Palestinians to stop resisting and to

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accept their fate and we see this as a practice that was followed uh in other

24:55

uh separate colonies as for the decisions uh those that were taken or

25:01

upcoming ones by the international uh uh criminal court or the international

25:06

court of justice uh in in both cases of course these are welcome we've seen similar decisions taken for example in

25:14

the case of Namibia in the early 1970s uh calling on South Africa to

25:20

remove its occupation forces the South Africans of course refused till 1990

25:25

nonetheless they have symbolic value and they do have the the advantage of

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isolating not only Israel but also the UN the United States and those uh pro-

25:37

genocide European countries that continue to support Israel come what may

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uh of course foremost among them is Germany uh followed by Britain and

25:48

France so um there is an important isolation isolationist Advantage uh of

25:54

these decisions of Israel and its major allies um and the fact that it has gone back to

26:02

its status in the 60s and 70s as a parah state which it had sort of overcome

26:09

after the collapse of the Soviet Union between 1990 and 20120 so for about 30

26:15

years it was able to exit the spaya state status which is it has now reentered with a Vengeance I

26:22

believe so I want to zoom out a little bit and ask you about that support from

26:28

the pro- genocide Western States you know these Western countries led by of course the us as well as many of those

26:34

in Europe that you mentioned they've offered this unconditional support to

26:40

Israel and its genocide in Gaza which I mean isn't necessarily surprising they off always offer pretty unconditional

26:46

support to the Israelis but you know you've argued that this is not unique or

26:51

exceptional and then I'm just going to uh quote you here you you wrote in one of your Middle East eye pieces that the

26:57

West views its survival as Europe and the US's Last Stand in support of racism and settler colonialism outside of their

27:04

borders and against the barbaric hordes of non-europeans resisting colonial rule

27:10

and determined to overthrow it and you also put it in the context of a colonial

27:15

tradition some of which you describe that's founded in this kind of Vengeance against the colonized for daring to

27:21

revolt militarily that's neither unique or exceptional do you think the West

27:27

support uh for this genocide is also much like you know one of the reasons Israel is carrying is out it out is also

27:34

part of a kind of punishment for the military successes of October 7th as

27:39

well as a kind of lesson for the rest of the global South as we emerge into a an

27:44

increasingly you know more potentially multi-polar order where there is an

27:50

anxiety in the west about a sort of decline um and being overshadowed by the

27:56

global South um well I mean yes I do believe it is uh uh can only be

28:02

explained in the context of ongoing Western support historically and I today

28:07

for Israel but but also ongoing Western support for Central colonies during their last days to prevent their fall

28:15

we've seen this in uh the Western support for Algeria uh for French

28:20

Algeria and the French in Algeria we've seen this in the attempts also to support um France uh during its

28:28

occupation and colonization of Tunisia and uh Morocco we've seen this in the

28:33

support given to uh Britain in Kenya we've seen it in the support that was

28:39

given to the white separate colonists in rodesia um certainly in South Africa I

28:45

mean the Americans uh until uh uh sort of the mid 1980s were the largest trade

28:51

partner the British West Germany and the United States were the had the largest

28:57

investments in South Africa the American support for the Portuguese and the South African uh war on the gorillas in Angola

29:04

and mamb contined till you know 2000 in the case of Angola and until 1990 in the case of

29:12

mosambi so uh yes I mean the us as you know went in immediately to support

29:18

France after its defeat at the enbian fu in Vietnam in 1854 and continued uh uh

29:25

the War uh at the behest of the French and then in the dependently until 1975 so um there is nothing special

29:33

about the ongoing support for Israel especially of course I mean ideologically as we've seen the

29:38

president of Israel Herzog had sort of regaled us with stories of

29:45

how Israel is defending western civilization and that were to fall

29:50

Europe would be next he said this explicitly we have also heard um recently from the uh uh German uh

29:59

president or head of the European Union who told us that Jewish values of Israel

30:05

that is not Jewish values more generally are European values we've also heard

30:10

similar uh accounts from the European Union's uh major sort of commissioner on

30:16

fighting anti-Semitism who tells us that also European uh uh culture is Jewish

30:22

culture by which she means Zionist culture um remember these are all anti-Semitic claims because Christian

30:29

Europe has always been built on the decimation and the Eraser of uh uh uh

30:35

Judaism and Jewish culture so to suddenly claim that a Zionist Israeli

30:40

Jewish culture is part of Europe is not actually a concession to Judaism but to Zionist colonialism it's not a

30:47

concession to jewishness but a concession to colonialist policies so this is important to remember but this

30:53

kind of equation that Israel and the West are supporting and defending Western values is something I must

31:00

concede because of course Western values are the values of colonialism and genocide this is precisely what Europe

31:07

especially European liberals have espoused since the late uh 18th century and continued to do so throughout the

31:13

19th century the support of so-called racialized democracy in the US while

31:18

supporting despotism for non Brown uh uh and for non-white people whether brown

31:23

black red or yellow is a major sort of uh Hallmark of European liberal thought

31:31

um and we see this of course as continuing today um we know that of course West Germany after its

31:37

establishment following the World War II learned nothing from its Nazi past uh I

31:44

you know I have come up with the epithet for it as the fourth re and I think it has continued to be that H after it

31:51

Germany was unified in 1990 uh so this is a government that has

31:57

upheld in fact continued to be staffed by ex-nazis and upheld uh uh Nazi

32:02

racialism except uh with regards to Jews I me and I've said this before in interviews and I've written about this

32:09

that the kind of regret that you see European countries including especially

32:15

West Germany and unified Germany's uh purported love uh uh for European Jews

32:21

and their gret over the Holocaust is based on this discovery that they made after World War II that Jews turned out

32:29

to be white people so they had mistaken them for non-white people which is why they committed that horrific genocide

32:35

against them that materialized in the Holocaust but now that they've realized after the 1950s that there was a mistake

32:42

and Jews were actually white Europeans they've regretted that so the regret was not that you should not kill people who

32:48

are different from you the regret is expressed that you should not kill people that are just like you meaning

32:54

white Europeans which Jews uh subsequent to the Holocaust and in the 1950s began

33:00

to be reintegrated in Europe at the level of cultural value however the

33:05

belief that nonwhite people should continue to be killed uh was never question we've seen this of course in

33:11

European colonial policies since World War II and the ongoing genocides you know from Algeria and Vietnam and in the

33:19

case of France du what the US had done from Korea to uh Vietnam central Africa

33:25

southern Africa Central and South America Etc you know what the

33:31

Portuguese had done Etc and of course the Germans have never shown as much regret over the holocausts in tanganika

33:38

and in Namibia uh before World War I uh they've recently sort of made some

33:43

apologies to Namibia but nothing more than that this is why today you see most

33:49

of the support coming excuse me coming the way of the

33:54

Palestinians coming precisely from people who have suffered under European

33:59

cetro colonialism South Africa and Namibia have been in the Forefront of supporting the Palestinians and in

34:06

condemning Israeli genocide that is ongoing today the only people who defend

34:11

that genocide of course are uh uh Germany at the European Union and the United States either separate colonies

34:17

or colonizing countries who had set up separate colonies previously so um in

34:23

that sense I think the support uh that the United States the West more

34:28

generally uh have given and continue to give to Israel is part and parcel of uh

34:34

their ongoing support for white supremacy in their own countries and elsewhere but Israel is of course the

34:40

last uh uh sort of European supremacist set Colony that remains in Asia and

34:46

Africa that continues to uh rule by with a battery of uh racist laws uh upwards

34:53

of five dozen laws uh maybe 65 to 66 laws uh uh on the latest count uh now in

35:01

terms of the kind of U support that Israeli genocide of the Palestinians uh

35:07

uh is obtaining in these uh Colonial settler and white supremacist quarters

35:13

yes it is part of a kind of Vengeance that uh inferior races have arrogated to

35:20

themselves the right or the ability to kill or resist uh sort of white

35:27

supremacy and European Supremacy we see this for example and and I tried to position this in the history of

35:33

colonialism perhaps the the major example goes back to 1879 when the Zulu

35:39

Army defeated the British and killed upwards of 1300 uh uh uh Brits um while

35:45

the British were trying to conquer Zulu land only for the British a few months later in July 1879 to bring a much

35:53

larger Army conquer zululand uh destroy uh uh basically the the capital of the

36:01

Zulu Kingdom hundi at the time and killed 10,000 Zulus to exact revenge and

36:06

teach them a lesson for having uh killed their uh betters and their superiors we

36:12

see this also such horrific massacres in Revenge uh in the 1890s the revenge is

36:18

is we have come and colonized your country you should be thankful if you resist that we have to avenge ourselves

36:25

meaning your resistance is not really a of Vengeance or retaliation against our colonization but if our response to your

36:32

resistance is retaliatory so we see this with the Rhian white settlers who

36:37

massacred uh uh hundreds and thousands of uh Native uh uh and

36:43

Indigenous Africans in the area that would become uh rodesia in the 1890s and

36:49

committed atrocious atrocious acts of physical mutilations and rapes we see

36:54

this also something that the Italians have done when they lost in the Battle of adwa to the Ethiopian Army in 1896

37:02

and were humiliated before the European peers they Avenged themselves through

37:07

melini's uh 1935 invasion of Ethiopia which killed upwards of 70,000

37:13

Ethiopians and transformed Ethiopia into an Italian Seer Colony we see this again

37:18

the British did something similar in Sudan you know the British were defeated in 1885 in Sudan by the Mahi they

37:27

decided again to go back and with a larger Army and Conquer Sudan uh uh 13

37:33

years later in 1898 killing 12,000 Sudanese uh in order to take it over and

37:39

even though Al Mahi had died of natural causes before them they went and decapitated his body and there was an

37:47

attempt to use his skull as an ink pot on the desk of the British colonial officer um in uh Sudan we see this also

37:55

something that the Spanish would do and the French in Morocco the ABD

38:02

Kimi who declared the reef Republic in 1921 had fought off the Spanish

38:07

colonists killing thousands of them and established an independent republic perhaps the first Arab independent

38:14

republic in the Arab world um only uh for a combined force of the Spanish and

38:20

the French to attack the Republic in 1926 killing tens of thousands uh of

38:25

Moroccans at the time mutually in their bodies raping their women and uh of course uh destroying the reef Republic

38:33

and reoccupying that part of Morocco so Algeria of course is the co cab of uh

38:41

French atrocities um especially uh if you want to speak about after World War

38:47

II from 1945 onwards where any Uprising by the Algerian natives against their

38:52

cruel and sadistic French settlers would be met with massive murders of tens of

38:58

thousands of algerians so much so that by between 1954 and 1962 upwards of

39:04

300,000 algerians were killed by the French so this kind of quest for vengeance This Racist quest for

39:12

vengeance and to teach those inferior races a good lesson for having actually

39:17

resisted their veterans and exacted uh sort of uh victims uh from amongst them

39:25

uh is actually a war strategy it's not only an irrational response um I mean it

39:30

is of course a Savage War um it is a racist one it is genocidal but I don't

39:37

think it's irrational so um I think that's such a

39:43

good way to put it and there's there's a topic I'm really excited to actually discuss with you here Joseph and that is

39:49

you know you were talking about Europeans not learning from what they did during the Holocaust obviously

39:55

particularly the Germans who kind of St Nazis um and how they adopted or decided

40:01

that you know Jews actually in Europe are white now they consider them white um and I I I'm I'm the reason I I like

40:10

the way you portrayed that is not just because it's factual but also it speaks to a kind of projection that we hear

40:16

from Europeans about the Holocaust it's almost sometimes the way they talk about it it's as if like the Middle Eastern

40:23

Arabs and Muslims were the ones who carried out the Holocaust and the reason I raised that the reason I'm excited to talk to you about this topic I'm going

40:29

to raise now is that you know zionists like to argue that Zionism is in fact

40:34

not white supremacy because there are many Arab Jews right which they call M

40:41

rahime uh in what is considered present day Israel um and zionists also insist

40:47

that the Arab countries kicked all of these Jews out over the decades since

40:52

Israel's creation uh because of just virulent anti-Semitism that resembled that of European Nazis um so I'm curious

41:01

if I I I want to open the topic on this because it's a common talking point so Joseph can you explain the actual

41:07

history here how did so many Arab Jews end up in what is now called Israel is

41:14

it because the Arab and Muslim majority countries just suddenly turned into Nazis um and I mean that's a rhetorical

41:21

question because that's not what happened um and also how has the European settler colony of Israel treed

41:27

them and erased their history um this is a large topic but I want to make a

41:32

perhaps uh add a footnote to what I said earlier about the transformation of Eur

41:38

European Jews from semites or an inferior race in the eyes of European

41:44

racists into whites who didn't deserve uh to be killed because they were white

41:50

uh you know a realization that dawned on EX German Nazis and Europeans afterward

41:57

World War II we see this also encouraged for example in Hollywood films remember the majority of the Six Million Jews who

42:03

were killed during World War II were poor EAS European Jews poor and religious um however we see the

42:09

depiction of uh Jews in Hollywood films about the Holocaust usually like as in

42:15

West European white looking Urban Highly Educated secular Jews playing piano

42:22

speaking uh Western languages Etc the idea is to also say that these European

42:28

Jews looked like all European Christians which is why they didn't deserve to die but of course they hardly ever

42:34

represented uh the majority of Jews who are poor and religious are hardly ever represented in these Holocaust films

42:42

lest uh they be seen by European anti-semites as different from themselves even during that period so

42:48

the point of trying to erase uh the history of European anti-jewish racism

42:54

and anti-Semitism is precisely by trying to erase the difference that these racists had registered between a a

43:02

certain Vision or idea or depiction fictional as it was of European Christians and European Jews having said

43:11

that um let me try to answer your very large question on the question of Arab

43:16

Jews of course A lot of these things are Zionist Fabrications there has never been a single order to expel any Arab

43:26

Jews from any Arab country since 1948 that simply didn't happen uh in fact the

43:32

opposite has happened and we will I will tell you a few things about that uh first of all after 1948 the league of

43:39

Arab states in fact uh issued instructions to all Arab countries to pass laws to prevent Arab Jews from

43:47

going to Israel or from immigrating to Israel so in fact subsequent immigration

43:52

of Arab Jews from different Arab countries to Israel was against the law

43:58

we see this uh perhaps uh uh most spectacularly in the case of Yemen but

44:04

also Iraq and and then Egypt and Morocco Tunisia or even Algeria uh first

44:11

of all let me say that the majority of Algerian uh Jews uh left with Algerian

44:17

uh uh French Christian settlers um uh you know with a kind of countdown to

44:23

Independence despite calls upon them by the fln the the Algerian National

44:29

Liberation Front to remain as compatriots and equal citizens remember

44:34

uh Algerian Jews were transformed by the French in 1870 at the time the Justice

44:41

uh minister of France Adolf Gru had granted Algerian Jews French citizenship

44:47

so as to render algerians all Muslims so suddenly Algerian Jews were taken out of

44:52

the Algerian status of colonized people and were given the right of the French

44:57

settlers and as a result began to be integrated into French colonial society

45:03

and of course and this is why it was easy for them to leave to France and they left to France long before Algerian

45:10

Independence so under the French Administration uh Moroccan and Tunisian Jews also left Tunisia and Morocco

45:18

during the French uh occupation in the case of Tunisia and the French and Spanish occupation in Morocco not under

45:26

the independent governments that came to power after 1956 and we know that I mean

45:31

there's already been a lot of history of how Moroccan Jews were tricked or sometimes forced to go on ships with the

45:38

collusion of French and Spanish officials and the zionists to be taken against their will through M to Israel

45:46

and then prevent it from going back but the big stories usually are the stories of the large communities in Yemen in

45:54

Iraq and in the smaller one in EG in Yemen of course uh that was uh at the

46:01

time ruled by a pro-western uh uh uh ruler by the name of Imam Ahmed who at

46:08

the time uh was basically allowed Zionist envoys to come in and uh because

46:13

the country was not highly centralized the zionists would go into different regions and try to bribe uh the rulers

46:21

of those regions to allow the Jews to immigrate which was against the law but many also ref refused and according to

46:29

uh the letters written by uh mosad agents who wrote back to their Handler saying you know many of the yemeni

46:35

Muslim leaders say we cannot allow you to take the Jews away from Yemen we are

46:41

obligated by our religion and L to protect them as sort of the people of

46:46

the book uh but indeed uh uh so they tried to in many ways go around these

46:53

objections to bring about the Exodus of yemeni Jews uh who left as a result of these Zionist

47:00

machinations the big Scandal of course has always been that of Iraqi Jews uh

47:05

Iraqi Jews had been historically anti-zionists as were the rabbis uh they

47:11

were represented in all classes like Muslim and Christian Iraqis indeed some of them were ministers in the

47:17

governments of Iraq under the British mandate uh however after 1948 of course

47:23

uh as I said in other Arab countries as in Iraq laws were legislated to ban the

47:29

possibility of Arab Jewish immigration to Israel at the time Iraq was applying

47:35

for a loan from the World Bank the Americans and the Israelis uh began to

47:42

uh influence the World Bank decision to give that loan to Iraq and that they would not give them that loan unless the

47:49

Iraqi Parliament would pass a law to unban uh Iraqi Jewish immigration to

47:57

Israel at the time Iraq of course was run by the British strong the Iraqi

48:03

strongman who was a British agent NRI s who collaborated basically on this issue

48:08

and finally had Parliament issue or unbanned immigration uh the Zionist

48:14

envoys who wrote back to the Mad would say we're about to win uh in Parliament

48:19

and to bring about what we have worked for for the previous two years um they did that however to encourage Iraqi

48:26

Jewish immigration uh the wasad planted several uh explosives in different cafes and

48:34

libraries frequented by Jews H they were set to go off at night one of them went

48:39

off early killing I think a couple of people and injuring a third um which of

48:45

course sent Panic or Panic waves in the Jewish Community thinking that it was Muslims or Christian Iraqis who were

48:52

targeting them and many began to leave the country of course the Parliament had

48:57

legislated that those Arab Jews wishing to leave would lose their Iraqi nationality and could not take their

49:03

property with them meaning they would arrive in Israel destitute which um um

49:09

many uh uh scholars believe was actually worked out with the Israelis so that the

49:14

Iraqi Jews would would arrive in Israel penniless and become working class

49:20

serving the ashkanazi community in Israel as many uh Arab Jewish historians

49:26

of that Exodus and of the Iraqi Jewish community in Israel have uh taught us um

49:32

in the case of Egypt which had a small community I mean the Iraq had about 130,000 Jews U basically it was emptied

49:40

of its Jews in a matter of few weeks uh uh in 1950 51 uh but uh in the case of

49:49

Egyptian Jews there was about 60 to 65,000 Jews half of them were not Egyptian citizens they were either

49:56

foreign Nationals or had uh they were stateless holders of Lees or travel

50:03

documents now U uh the rich amongst them decided to leave in 1948 as a result of

50:11

uh the Zionist conquest of Palestine uh there began to of course arise anti-jewish sentiment in the country uh

50:18

but uh but mostly it was anti-an so some European Jewish businesses like European

50:24

Christian businesses were attacked or burnt down in some demonstrations in Egypt during that period however the

50:31

major Exodus of Egyptian Jews would take place in 1954 the Israelis were able to

50:38

recruit about nine or 10 uh uh Egyptian Jews as terrorists and spies for them uh

50:45

this Scandal would come to be known as the Lavon Affair after the Israeli Minister hak Lavon who had engineered it

50:52

wherein some of these terrorists were to plant uh explosives in Egyptian Cinemas

50:59

in the major train station in Cairo um in different other post offices in

51:04

Alexandria and in Cairo uh again one of the explosives went off uh early uh and

51:11

injured one of the terrorists who was captured and told on the rest of the uh

51:16

cell all of whom were captured by the Egyptian authorities uh and then of

51:21

course they had a public trial uh the NASA regime was explicit uh in

51:27

directives and announcements to the population that a distinction has to always be made between zionists and

51:34

Egyptian Jews that these were zionists even though they were Jewish they're not the same as Egyptian Jews nonetheless of

51:41

course public sentiment began to be very hostile to Egyptian Jews which brought about um The Exodus of a large number

51:49

also of the upper class and the middle class who went to France or to the Bay Area in the United States it was in 1956

51:57

when in collusion with France and Britain Israel invaded Egypt and what came to be known as The tripartite

52:04

Invasion or what the West calls the Suz war that had elicited a much larger and

52:11

final Exodus of Egyptian Jews from the country the poor amongst them could not

52:17

reach France or the United States and ended up in Israel the Israeli propaganda line usually is that in 1956

52:26

the Egyptian regime expelled Jews that's not true the Egyptian regime as all

52:31

other regimes or governments during war time uh did uh Deport all holders of uh

52:38

British as well as French nationality and I if I'm not mistaken also Belgian

52:44

nationality who are participants in the war as enemy Nationals so those Jews who

52:49

held like other Christians uh British or French nationalities were deported from

52:55

the country but there were was never a deportation order for Egyptian Jews or for Jews who held non-enemy

53:01

nationalities that's utterly untrue and indeed uh uh some would say that

53:07

Egyptian Jewish property was nationalized that's not true uh in the 1950s the NASA government had what was

53:15

called then an egyptianizing to egyptianizing

53:26

to Egyptians um usually a big propaganda lie is that the shakurel family as

53:34

Safari family that originated in Turkey who had come to Egypt after World War I and owned uh one of the largest

53:41

department stores the shakurel department store left because its store had been nationalized it was not in fact

53:48

shurell sold the business at a very good price to Al gabri Muslim family in Egypt

53:53

subsequently after 58 a lot of these these businesses were nationalized when the sharel department store was

53:59

nationalized it was owned by a Muslim family and not by the sharel family who had sold it uh and uh left uh to uh

54:08

Britain or to France so the point of this is that uh none of this is actually

54:14

true most of the Jews who left Arab countries either left during the British or French or Spanish rule or um if they

54:22

left after Independence uh they left of their own accord as a result of Israeli

54:28

direct intervention in their lives that has up that had upended their lives

54:33

until then and these stories of course can you know multiply on a smaller scale

54:39

elsewhere um as far as their treatment in Israel as soon as they arrived of course they were placed in refugee camps

54:46

the ashkanazi European Jews were given uh the homes of The Expelled Palestinian

54:52

population as well as their lands the better lands uh of the Palestinian by the time the Arab Jews were bought in um

54:59

they were given substandard housing if at all and uh uh the Lesser fertile land

55:06

to set up on them some agricultural cooperatives um especially as the kibot

55:12

which were sort of a master race socialism for ashkan aim only had the best land and Arab Jews could not join

55:19

them uh so we begin to see in fact the discrimination against them in education

55:24

in employment even in subsidies for example European ashkanazi bread would be subsidized by the government but not

55:32

Arab bread when Iraqi Bakers wanted to make Iraqi bread they refused to give

55:37

them subsidized flour and they would have had to actually buy the expensive flour to make it because that was not

55:42

subsidized that was not considered part of the national or Jewish bread so something as trivial as that became a

55:48

problem the educational system would discriminate against them uh uh they

55:54

would discriminate against them even based on their proper pronunciation of Hebrew as opposed to the Germanic and

56:00

Russian pronunciation of Hebrew of the East European and West European Jews which became the standard pronunciation

56:07

in the country with a couple of exceptions um uh which uh uh took on a

56:13

certain Safari pronunciation of the language what is called theic system and the pronunciation of

56:21

the letter th in Hebrew which the Safar pronounced as THV and the and the ashim

56:27

as aside from these two concessions all the other so-called citic sounds in

56:33

Hebrew like the like like the none of these of course are is pronounced today

56:40

Asim in Israel uh even though some of the MIM continue to pronounce them and

56:46

of course are looked down upon for pronouncing them correctly as opposed to in a European East European or Central

56:53

European fashion um uh of of course they would be blamed even in 1977 for the

56:59

election of the right-wing leud government uh ashkanazi liberals would say oh these horrible Arab Jews who grew

57:06

up in a despotic and dictatorial Arab world support leud which is dictatorial

57:12

because of their Arab tradition of course the Arab Jews have to remind them that all the Arab Jews who grew up in

57:18

the Arab world and came to Israel uh in 1949 to 55 had voted labor until 1977 it

57:26

was their children who grew up in Israel who seemed to love and support leud in

57:31

1977 but of course you know liberal Zionist racism toward the MIM has always

57:37

been immense if anything uh liberal zionists may be more accommodating to

57:42

Liberal Palestinians like the PA than they had been to more radical voices in

57:47

the mrai community that called the ashkanazi racists on racism indeed many

57:54

uh M intellectual R refer to Israel as the ashkanazi state right as a result of

58:00

the ongoing discriminatory practices against them and the insistence that Israel is a European country should be a

58:07

European country should carry what they call European culture and

58:12

values wow that was a that was a really really really good explanation

58:19

I but but it's important no but it's so important because it's this is not it's not just I mean it's a propaganda point

58:25

that the Israelis always also bring out but it's also important to recognize how much Israel remade the entire region I

58:32

mean it sectarianization it literally took some of the oldest communities in certain places out and brought them into

58:39

this settler colony and then erased their histories and basically projected European history onto them um while also

58:47

doing all of the or putting on all these like racist tropes onto these people that you just explained uh who at the

58:54

end of the day have far more more in common to the Palestinians they've been brought in to replace uh than these

59:01

Europeans uh who claim to be superior to them and that just speaks to the level of anti-Semitism that's inherent to

59:07

Zionism and I know that we we don't have all the time to maybe get to everything I wanted to but something I did I

59:14

definitely want to ask you about because I think it's so important um and you've written about this a lot is the is is

59:22

Jewish anti-zionism in particular um and a that you wrote titled Jewish

59:28

opposition to Israel is as old as Zionism itself you say that European and American Jews have been at the forfront

59:34

of opposition to Zionism since its birth as a colonial settler movement at the end of the 19th century and I think this

59:41

is very significant and important to highlight because the US and Israel are

59:46

trying to make Jews and jewishness the face of this genocide and the Zionist

59:51

project more generally um and of course it I that's why I need to to bring on somebody uh of Palestinian Arab descent

59:59

to to defend to defend uh jewishness from the anti-Semitism inherent to

1:00:04

Zionism but in all seriousness um can you talk about that can you talk about

1:00:10

the fact that or I guess can you briefly explain Jewish anti-zionism

1:00:15

historically and then its ongoing existence today and of course the Zionist reaction to anti-zionist Jews

1:00:22

which is basically kind of genocidal at this point in of itself if you enjoyed this episode and want to hear the rest

1:00:28

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